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Young Griffo "Facade" by Blitzzz
#1
Hello,

I really had trouble to make the distorted guitars in the chorus sound "right". The problem is: It seems like the guitar player recorded one DI-Track and reamped it with two different amps and two mics. Its fine to have 4 different guitars sounds but in the end it is still only one guitar track. All the richness of a double or even quad tracked guitar riff is missing. No matter what i did the guitar riff in the chorus still sounds like one track which has been copied and panned left/right. Big Mono if you wish. Not cool. I also tried the old haas trick but I couldn't make it sound like the way I wanted it so sound. I was very, very close to grab my guitar and record a second track myself =)

Other then that I tried to work with different reverb and delays to give each part of the song a different feel. I`ve also added a kick sample to give the kickdrum just a little bit more "bite" without EQ'ing it to death.

Edit Januar 2020 (Facade by Blitzzz_V2.mp3): Version V2 is a new version with the trick mentioned in this thread (cutting and blending the two chorus parts for the guitar together so you essentially have two guitars playing in the chorus instead of only one).


Thumbnail(s)
   
.mp3    Facade by Blitzzz.mp3 --  (Download: 6.41 MB)


.mp3    Facade by Blitzzz_v2.mp3 --  (Download: 6.35 MB)


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#2
Nice work Big Grin You've peaked my interest in this one.
To mix or not to mix ... mix!
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#3
I´ll he happy to listen to your mix and hear how you solve the mono-guitar-madness of this song =)

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#4
Each guitar is one amp tracked with 3 different mics, two of which are off axis... and there are some really serious phase nasties if you're not careful. Some of your guitars have a nasal quality that I think probably stems from the phase issues. Are you trying to EQ the different tripled mics individually? Unless you're using a linear phase EQ that can really get you in trouble, especially if you do decide to spread them out.

I imagine the intent is to spread out the sound a bit... pretty much every 4 piece rock band records this way these days to get a much bigger than 4 piece sound. but hard L/R is probably not a good idea with all of the phase stuff going on. Guitars might disappear entirely.

Generally I have two go-to solutions when something like this is going on: First thing I'll try is fanning the mics out over a small piece of stereo real estate, maybe 20% total and bus them to a group channel. Check on that group channel's EQ/Compression needs and see if I can get away with any more wideness. Sometimes, tracks will be recorded this way with the intent of producing intentional phase anomalies for a nasty, nasal sound. Trent Reznor is supposedly fond of that technique.

And failing that, I'll just pick the mic that sounds the best... and if I need more wideness, very short, very dense plate reverbs will usually do the trick. Key is to make sure it doesn't sound like reverb Tongue

Having said all that, though, I think this is decent. It's a very difficult mix... multimiked ensembles always are. The guitar tones feel pretty nasal to me but as I mentioned, many many people strive for that sound, and among my own personal favorites, Frank Zappa was notorious for it (Check out "apostrophe" to see what I mean.)
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#5
Hey Pauli,

I was confused because the guitar tracks don't sound like two takes recorded seperately. I thought it was one DI track played through 2 different amps and recorded with 2 different mics (= 4 tracks). I have just read Mikes article about this song and it looks like I was right: "Each of the two guitar performances (the main rhythm part and an overdubbed solo) had been played through Vox and Orange amps simultaneously, the former captured with Beyerdynamic M160 and Shure SM57 mics, the latter with a Sennheiser MD421 and a Cascade Fat Head ribbon."

So it's just one rhythm guitar track with 4 different sounds. not the best starting point if you consider the ref tracks (Queens of the Stone Age, Thrive). I wished the guitar player had at least doubled the rhythm guitar. thx for the reverb tip, I will give it a try.

btw there are 4 tracks for the main guitars and 4 additional tracks for the last chorus in the zip Smile
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#6
I did a quick check and found that this wasn't the song I'd downloaded, it was Blood to Bone. And I've been attacking that one on and off for months, but trying to get a proper guitar sound (that suits me, anyway) is a real pain. When I record I prefer to double track rather than multimike for that reason, at least for electric guitars.... the chance of phasing is a lot less. Of course, with an acoustic guitar that's a rather different conversation. Anyway, enjoyed listening.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#7
have you read mikes article about facade?

"My solution to the 'Facade' quandary, therefore, was to edit together a rhythm‑part double‑track by copying and pasting the guitar parts between the two choruses (something that's a cinch to do with any repetitive part like this), allowing me to keep the mic signals for each guitar part panned close together on opposite sides of the stereo picture. That meant that I could freely adjust the guitar tone without unduly compromising the mono compatibility of the track as a whole."

Maybe this works for Blood to the Bone too?

Anyway, I made a new mix based on Mikes tips. I`m happy with it now - the guitars sound so much better in the chorus. Many, many thx for pointing me in the right direction Pauli.


.mp3    Facade by Blitzzz_v2.mp3 --  (Download: 6.35 MB)


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#8
Smile Yeah, that's a tactic I use very regularly on lead vocals when a double track should have been recorded and wasn't... this article may have been where I first heard of it, but I believe he makes passing mention of it in his book as well.

Unfortunately, almost every time I see these multimiking setups with silly amp combinations, the phase situation is too out of control to get the sort of blend I'd like. Linear phase EQ is helpful, but it's still pretty useless for notching out the inevitable cabinet resonances because of the high pitched howling right before it starts getting strong in the frequency region you're cutting, and fiddling with phase rotation can take all day if your room isn't treated.

I'm working with this kid from my hometown right now who used a dual miking strategy on his acoustic guitar and the situation is pretty dire... I'm debating on re-recording it myself and hoping he doesn't notice Tongue
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#9
Listening to this mix after a couple of months it's crazy how many things I hear that I should fix that I didn't hear back then. Looks like there is some progress, at least.
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#10
(06-07-2014, 03:16 PM)Blitzzz Wrote: Hello,

I really had trouble to make the distorted guitars in the chorus sound "right". The problem is: It seems like the guitar player recorded one DI-Track and reamped it with two different amps and two mics. Its fine to have 4 different guitars sounds but in the end it is still only one guitar track. All the richness of a double or even quad tracked guitar riff is missing. No matter what i did the guitar riff in the chorus still sounds like one track which has been copied and panned left/right. Big Mono if you wish. Not cool. I also tried the old haas trick but I couldn't make it sound like the way I wanted it so sound. I was very, very close to grab my guitar and record a second track myself =)

Other then that I tried to work with different reverb and delays to give each part of the song a different feel. I`ve also added a kick sample to give the kickdrum just a little bit more "bite" without EQ'ing it to death.
I know its been a while for you and this song, however if you had expanded the clip you would have noticed that the wave forms on most of the guitars were identical. The grts for this song were only the tip of the iceberg in regards to issues. I first tried only using the guitar signals that were obviously different in wave form and making some dirty little adjustments with not much pay off, but then I decided after reading the article having already mixed the song to borrow adjacent guitar part via copy/paste. No haas effect, usually the haas fx sounds exactly like two same parts chorused together. The first mix you did was dark and dry, the second was an improvement, but this song is like putting an old whore in a new dress. (no emoticon)
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