It's always nice to see humility still alive and well.
Well, I learned a couple things, important things actually, from you and Mikej. And for that I am grateful. We all start out that way, crawl first and then walk and run. Mostly in that order. I get that. Right now I am just trying to get to be on my stomach before I get to crawl.
Anyway, I use the limiter to clamp down the guitars as suggested and found it produced quite pleasant sounds, somehow easier to work with other instruments. Thanks a lot, man.
I spent most time working on the snare. The ref's snare is killing me, it sounded so good a bit of me died when I heard it. I got it close but still unsure.
Work on the bass's top end and the growl. Much easier now that I clamp down the low end. Double thanks to you.
I thought the guitars chugging in the ref was very nice and powerful so I worked on that too. I'd probably want it to sound like the ref but unable to replicate.
Let me know what you think if you have time. Thanks for the listen.
06-02-2023, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2023, 10:15 PM by mikej.
Edit Reason: Added some more thoughts...
)
Hi,
I'm listening on earbuds right now so I might be a bit off, but here's my thoughts:
- I'd maybe bring up the guitar riff at the 20 sec mark.
- For me, I feel the snare is too loud by some margin.
Aside from that, I think the rest is much better and is certainly getting there .
Personally I'd try and tuck the snare back in the mix a bit. To me it's sticking out too much compared to everything else and doesn't feel part of the mix. It might help to try and balance it with the volume of the kick? When you adjust the level of anything, I find that sometimes it helps to focus on the effect the volume of the thing you are adjusting on everything else, rather than the thing itself - if that makes sense? I'm probably not explaining it very well. For example, listen to the effect the snare has on the vocal as you adjust the snare level, rather than listening to the snare itself?
For me I think the power of the snare comes from the room mic and I feel the trick is first getting the balance of the direct and room mic right, then getting the balance of that right with the rest of the track. If you check my rough mix (that has no processing at all on it) the snare is just loud enough to be heard over everything else but not much more yet it still has some power to it. Although I notice that I probably personally tend to gravitate towards a more roomier sort of sound than a drier sound, so your taste might vary.
Whilst I've not quite got around to posting my own updated mix yet (with limiters on the guitar). I found trying a limiter kind of sets the ceiling on the dynamics of the guitar that allows just a little more breathing space for the drums to poke out over top. I don't really tend to use limiters unless something is wildly out of control. I found it interesting to hear how adding a limiter to the guitar affected the perception of giving just a touch more clarity to the drums and vocal when I tried it.
As an aside, not applicable to this mix, I have found that using a limiter on an acoustic guitar can sometimes work well. I think it's because you can add a bit of volume and level it out without adding as much room tone as opposed to using a compressor.
Cheers!
Edit: Just had a thought that for me it does help to kind of focus on trying to get one thing right at a time. You know, focus on the thing I feel I'm really not good at. Snares were one thing I had a big problem with getting somewhat right (and I'm still not sure at times). Not so long ago I had no clue at all about how to tackle the whole multi mic'd drumkit. It was a complete mystery as to what all the channels were, let alone what you were supposed to do with them, as I only really had experience of drum machines and drum samples before I started practicing on here with the multitracks. Youtube was a great help.
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
Thanks for the listen, man. I totally agree w/you on focusing on one thing at a time, bc the level of know-how dictates it, in my case. Right now, for me too, is the snare. I heard someone said, " if the drum set is the band the snare is the front man."
It's my first time that someone says that the snare is a bit loud. Still happy. I'll back it off to get better balance as suggested. I understand your explanation on listening to more than one instrument. My being able to hear more stuff helps too. For example, I used to be able only to hear only to what I was working on without hearing the reactions of other instruments. Take the distorted guitars (rhythm) for example. I'd try to get it smashing without knowing to go easy on certain regions for other things, snare, for example. As a result, the snare is buried way down there and the vicious cycle begins. After a while, I found that 100-200, 850-1100, 3000-4,5000K cut on the guitars leave so much room for the snare. LP the bass, while listening to the snare, kick, and guitars at the same time, would leave room for the snap of the snare, the beater of the kick, and the chugging of the guitar, etc. I am still working on hearing more. Right now honing on an instrument without losing sight of others (w/o damaging them in the process) is my biggest problem. Sometimes I have a killer snare and then after I work on some other things a bit when I turn back, the snare disappears. Work on the snare then the vocal disappears, etc. It happens less often now but still happens. It is an essential skill to have as a mixer.
I love the limiter now that I am somewhat familiar with it. When I first heard it from Blitzzz, I understood what he meant but was worrying about the stereo spectrum, too much limit would probably kill the stereo image bc, by definition, the limiter has the fastest attack. But when I tried it, it worked perfectly. I still find that it very hard to hear the details of its inner working. All I hear is the instrument gets louder w/o slamming on the meter, beefier, and steadier, stuffs a mixer would rather prefer. I actually have it everywhere and still learning it. My processing chain is quite simple, a gate, EQ, compressor, limiter, in that order. And yeah, all stock. Like you and Blitzz said there's no magic, just the man. I have learned that lesson and am trying.
The way I see it is each of us has our own unique ways of learning and coming up with solutions. And by sharing our experiences, some of us will discover a better/faster/easier/etc way to tackle a task at hand. We wouldn't be here doing this if the Indian didn't share the discovery of the number 0, the Sumerian's didn't share their writing system, and the Greek's didn't share their democracy. That's the reason why I appreciate you guys' reaching out to help. You guys make me a better mixer. Not everything is a zero-sum situation. I learn limiter technique from Blitzz, kindness from you, and humility from both. You lose none even when I gain them. So thanks for sharing.
I'll come back and work on this song more. Thank you for the time. I appreciate it. Second pair of ears is always helpful, especially at your level.
To get a good mix I think you sort of have to get everything right at once, but it's impossible to learn how to do everything in one go. You have to kind of accept you have to figure it out a bit at at time, stick at it and inch closer to your goal bit by bit - and hope that at some point it will all start to come together. For me I feel it's like to learn how to mix, first - you have to learn how to mix, if that makes any sense!
I actually think the first question I asked someone on here was how they managed to get such a good snare sound. For quite some time I used to get comments that my snare sound was a bit odd to say the least. Mainly because I realised I didn't really know what a good snare sound was, let alone how to go about getting one. I still think it's likely that my idea of a good snare sound and everyone else's probably differs somewhat.... .
I don't at all consider myself at all to be on any level as such. A lot of my mixes on here are pretty bad in one way or another as I learn. I've just been interested in music and mixing for years. I signed up here as I'd picked up Mike's book, there were lots of tracks to download and mix and it seemed like a good place to get some feedback, and to hopefully figure some things out and improve.
I see you working at it, trying different things and posting up different mix versions here. I just felt that I might have some ideas that I thought might help and move things along in the right direction, as others on the forum have helped me. I've had some good help and info along the way here and there, so it's also about trying to pay it forward too really.
Personally for me it's people like Blitzzz that I find pretty inspirational. The impression I get is that he sat down and decided to really work hard at this to try and figure out how to mix at a high level, so he could do the best possible job he could for his band's albums. I think he did a top level job and got great results. I feel it gives some hope for the rest of us that it might just be possible to figure all this out and learn how to mix, and that you might just be able to achieve something if you really work at it and put the effort in.
Oh, I must confess that I don't use all stock plugins, but I do regularly use quite a fair few stock ones. I do have a very small set of plugins that are my goto's as it were. I mainly use just the one eq and compressor, etc. I don't have a lot of additional plugins installed and I try to keep those I do install to a minimum. I've been through the process of buying all the plugins I thought I needed, you know spending money on the ones that were going to of course make my mixes amazing... and I've uninstalled nearly all of them. Now I've settled on a small handful of plugins that seem to work for me. I don't really bother chasing new stuff or spending on things I now know I really don't need. I found that I really don't need 20 different eq's and 10 different compressors. Other people do like having lots of choices and things though, which is fine, it's just not for me and I don't really have to think about which eq I'm going to use or whatever.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
I can share the stems for vocals, drums, guitars, synth and bass with you; we needed them for the mastering process, and they might help you to find the right balance.
As far as I can remember, there was not a lot of processing on the snare (and on the rest of the tracks, too), the final mixes where pretty clean and empty in terms of plugins
07-02-2023, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2023, 05:25 PM by Blitzzz.)
Here is an AWESOME tip regarding toms mixing from Nolly. This works so incredibly well that Saturn was the only plugin I had on the toms in the final mix. Cubase has a stock plugin with the same functionality, so you probably don`t have to buy Saturn to get similar results.
This is sooooo good! You should check the whole video if you have the time. You can also download the original stems and mix them along with Nolly, which is basically the same thing I did a couple of years ago on Nailthemix. Highly recommended!
08-02-2023, 08:48 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2023, 08:48 AM by mikej.)
(07-02-2023, 04:59 PM)Blitzzz Wrote: I can share the stems for vocals, drums, guitars, synth and bass with you; we needed them for the mastering process, and they might help you to find the right balance.
Wow! Thanks for posting these. I'll look forward to checking them out later. I'm sure SonicTramp will find them useful.
Blitzzz Wrote:As far as I can remember, there was not a lot of processing on the snare (and on the rest of the tracks, too), the final mixes where pretty clean and empty in terms of plugins
The raw tracks are really good. I was quite surprised at how well my rough mix effort came out. This is a really good session for practicing mix balance with, without worrying about plugins.
I'll check out the that toms video later too.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
My discovery of using stock plugins is mostly accidental. I had a crash while working and had no choice but to do a full recovery (time machine). After that my mac book became quite feisty and uncooperative. Crashes whenever, clips the volume to the point I have to restart my DAW, destroyed my plugins from third party, just to name only a few. It's still on-going. The one I miss most is SPAN. I have been flying blind for the last ~2yrs. I was forced to use my ears w/o visual aid from SPAN. Still painful but not as intense as it used to be. In a way, it helps train my ears so it's not too bad. That's how I discover and use stock plugs. It doesn't matter what you use, as long as it sounds good. I am neither proud or ashamed bc of my plugins. However, I think that some plugins do help spraying a bit of angel dust on the mix.
It's funny how you mentioned about the recognition/realization of a "good" snare. I asked myself that too. What does a good snare sound like? Well, I thought the best way was to listen to some of my fave songs to find out. Turned out they all sounded good and still I wasn't any wiser. Learned nothing from it. Gave up and moved on. A while later I came back with a bunch of questions and walked myself thru it. Do I hear the attack? Do I hear the body? Do I hear the snare bottom? Is it beefy? Do I hear the ringing? Do I hear any mud? Do I hear bleeds? etc. I came to conclusion that IF, a big if and still working on it, I address all those (ADSR), the snare should be good to blend in the kit. Rinse and repeat. I do that to everything else. The questions help me make my moves purposefully. I don't get there yet, but I know what I am looking for. I am curious about your thoughts on this. What conclusion did you come up with?
The way I find Blitzz inspirational is he is here with us with the willingness to share his knowledge. I love his mix/music and want to learn more from him. I respect him as a mixer, and he seems like a nice guy.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I learned a couple things.
Thanks, Blitzz, for posting the stems. That's very thoughtful of you. I am sure many in here will also find them useful. And yeah, looks like heads are gonna have to roll from here on out for me, mostly mine.
.
.