Once more with feelin - voelund

[The_Metallurgist]

Yah a suggestion. I wonder is the verb too much too little too dark too long too short.
Would be little easier understandin you if it were more specific. I think

i was intentionally vague for a reason....if i give you the answer from my perspective, it's not your work

seriously, it's the information the reverb is communicating you need to be aware of, and books have been written on that subject alone! however, a rule-of-thumb would be....

...if you want the vocal up-front, INCREASE the pre-delay and make the vocal brighter. the further back you want it, shorten the pre-delay or remove it completely if it's out the back somewhere....and lose the high content at the same time in both the vocal and the reverb. just don't ask me why otherwise i'll be typing for the rest of the night it's unwise to quote values here because you have to find what sounds best to your ears in your situation and adjust accordingly, eh?

brightness is all about the reflections in the room, and what it's furnished with. hard surfaces, bright reflections....but man, it's a million times more complicated that this, like even considering how long the high frequencies take to decay for example, relative to the low ones! you need to read up on it, or watch some videos on ytube perhaps.

sorry i can't be more specific, but it's not a specific subject and it's full of science and psychoacoustic voodoo.

laters..
Dave

[Voelund]

Got you. I guess. Thx

[ALX]

The_Metallurgist. He is a special guy.

The nice version. I just tried to write a brief description for you twice and it started to get confusing to me both times. It took me 15 year to finally understand how it work and now I can not put it into words. I can PM you the setting I used for an acoustic style mix and you can maybe reverse engineer it to get a better understanding.

[Voelund]

Thats very generous of you - dont sweat over it. I kinda know the theory. I guess I focused more on the kick n snare as they are ( one of ) my weak spots. I usually test the verb returns a lot but on tjis one my focus were elsewhere. When I get a chance will give it a go

But if you get somthin down on paper Im a glad receiver. Always like to learn

[The_Metallurgist]

The_Metallurgist. He is a special guy.

The nice version.

so, you read Oscar Wilde? "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"
SARCASM ISN'T NICE, get it?

I just tried to write a brief description for you twice and it started to get confusing to me both times. It took me 15 year to finally understand how it work and now I can not put it into words.

and this is why i recommended Veolund should go off and research it for himself. i've been involved, both directly and indirectly in formal training and development, and personal mentoring for over 30 years. you don't teach anybody by giving them the answers, but the tools to help them develop themselves. it's for them to provide the motivation to do this work....and if they come to this forum to find the fast road to being a David Pensado, then they are in for a shock, with or without your PM's.

fundamentally, no two mixes are the same, and this means you have to have a thorough understanding of the THEORY before you can address the solution. and this is why it took you 15 years and why you can't just spew out an answer in a forum to help this guy become a master in the art of ambiance - none of us can, and none of us should be stupid enough to even try because it's just not that simple, eh?

I can PM you the setting I used for an acoustic style mix and you can maybe reverse engineer it to get a better understanding.

this won't help teach him the theory!!!

bottom line here, is that there's NO EASY WAY OUT of the chore of learning. you gotta put in the work and effort as i'm sure you will appreciate from your own personal experiences?

i understand your enthusiasm in trying to help others. we are both here to try and help and indeed to receive assistance when we need it. however, being sarcastic merely shows your arrogance......

........now, let me make an observation that i'd like to share with you: if it took you 15 years to understand ambiance, then you have nothing to be arrogant about, OK?

[ALX]

The_Metallurgist. There are nicer ways to tell someone that it is difficult to explain and not be an a.. about it. He was asking for some help. Just say you can't explain it without all the extra "you should be doing your homework lecturing". If he is mixing tracks from this site, I am sure he has read up on it. I studied it in school and it was still a mystery to me. One little thing you see or hear may make all the things you have read start to make sense. I think that is what most people are looking for. I get really irritated when ever someone criticizes something without a solution or a reason why. Playing "guess what I mean". Tell him what it is that you think the reverb needs or what you are hearing.

Arragant? Go look at the post that I have given advice. I am very careful not to come across as abrasive or cocky when pointing out something that I think may help someone and am very happy if it works for them. Most of the post I have read from you have the same undertone that make people feel like "Got you. I guess. Thx". It is in your delivery.

[The_Metallurgist]

The_Metallurgist. There are nicer ways to tell someone that it is difficult to explain and not be an a.. about it. He was asking for some help.

i didn't see Voelund being offended by my posting, and rightly so because there was nothing there to be offended about. looks like you have a chip on your shoulder mate. and why do you feel the need to speak on behalf of others? what's your problem? may i suggest you keep it out of this forum?

if you have a grudge and wish to get personal, you are more than welcome to PM me!

Just say you can't explain it without all the extra "you should be doing your homework lecturing".

that's NOT what i said...these are YOUR words....and your interpretations and assumptions based on YOUR PERSONALITY.

I studied it in school and it was still a mystery to me.

sorry to hear that. do you have learning difficulties? you clearly had a useless teacher, but that's not your fault.

One little thing you see or hear may make all the things you have read start to make sense.

now we are on the same page. i couldn't agree more with you. and this is why expanding our "reference base" during development is important...like youtube, etc etc. and why i made my recommendation. incidentally, though hardly incidental here.....i actually saw a fantastic video of only 8 minutes duration that really helped me understand reverb and ambiance, and it got EVERYTHING in perspective...and it didn't take me 15 years, thankfully (but i can still mess up). so, my recommendation was based on personal experience, not that you'd be expected to know that, of course. you should also be aware, that one of THE MOST powerful learning methods is exploration...seeking your own answers through researching. why? because in so-doing, you read up or discover other things you might not have been aware of quite by chance. and that enhances self-development like nothing on earth. i speak from experience.

Mike Senior goes to extraordinary lengths and self restraint in his book "Mixing Secrets", NOT to suggest parameter values, and he does this for good reason. if you have a personal need to give out specific parameter settings for a specific situation that's fine. however, as Mike clearly understands, and you apparently don't, this doesn't help anyone in the long run. i can tell merely by your approach, that you don't understand the processes of development - that's not a criticism, before you get on your high horse again, but a valid observation. reflect on this please. i recommend you don't let your ignorance become a reason for public sarcasm and making irresponsible assumptions. be careful

I get really irritated when ever someone criticizes something without a solution or a reason why.

so, does this mean you need to be told the answers because you are unable to work it out for yourself? we create our own emotional response, others don't do it for us. you only feel irritated because that's the response you choose.

Playing "guess what I mean".

i don't play games, and your statement and accusation here is totally incorrect.

Tell him what it is that you think the reverb needs or what you are hearing.

that's one way of going about it for sure. however, it's not going to help anyone, whether Voelund or others reading this section, in how to approach their own projects, current or future. mine does, as frustratingly constrained as it may be owing to the complexity of the subject. and you will note, i drew attention to the fact that i understood the challenge.

i personally don't put answers on a plate, especially when it comes to audio or acoustics.....because i know this doesn't actually empower and i know that no two situations are ever repeatable owing to the nature and complexities of the subject - Mike knows this too. maybe your school learning problems you shared with us are actually an example here? if a teacher drops the whole thing on your lap, i can imagine the issues this could cause. i feel sorry for you, and i'm not being funny here. if you had a decent teacher back then, i'm confident you wouldn't have struggled. they say there is no such thing as a bad pupil, only a bad teacher. i concur.

people have to train their own ears. neither you, nor i can do this for them. all we can do is try to guide, nothing more. telling people answers isn't empowering. helping them to think through a problem does empower. try it and see how you get on.

Arragant?

do you mean "arrogant"? if you understood my previous posting, you'd have read that your sarcasm is a form of arrogance. sarcasm is also not good netiquette when it's intention is clearly derogatory. and neither is it smart, as inferred by Oscar Wilde's quotation.

Go look at the post that I have given advice.

wouldn't you say that statement alone is an arrogant one?

Most of the post I have read from you have the same undertone that make people feel like "Got you. I guess. Thx". It is in your delivery.

that's a matter of interpretation.....and interpretation is a matter of your psychological profile. whatever your profile, it doesn't give you the right to publicly belittle me in a sarcastic manner.

don't lose sight of the fact that we are all here to help in the best way we can, and we all want to improve as fast as we can. our reward is seeing AND hearing our 'colleagues' improve by helping them find their own solutions. there's no Black Belt in Martial Arts walking the planet because he or she was told what to do, and when to do it.

[Voelund]

Great discussion.
Personally I can use both very specific suggestions ( I'll tune it anyways ) or bein told theres a problem and I should look into eq, verb etc.
I admit sometimes the way Im told things block for the immediate urge to do somthin about it.

This sounds like shit wont make me want to revisit the session, not immediately ...

[Voelund]

In this particular case the discussion made me think so much I plan to ditch audible verb and use a special 2 slap echo instead, very eq tuned. If my idea sorks out I will post a new version. Eventually with ganz anderes than what I plan now

[Voelund]

I guess they call that thinkin - right ?