Echo, E J Rios

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This is a rough mix to begin with, going to listen to others and then try again.

I didn't do much. I used lufs meter vst on each track to set each track at same level to begin with. Put compressor on kick, took away some vocal tracks, added a chorus flanger to guitar as it sounded pretty weak.

I would definetly want the singer to retry the chorus vocals i.e perhaps adda vocal more upfront as I feel that the chorus is almost like a bridge. Also, i'm not sure if the song knows what it's meant to be: It's caught between being a pop song and background music to some kind of action film/ maybe like the theme to a bond film.

I quite like this song as it has all these instruments in it which makes it interesting. I've also spent a bit of time this month trying to create ' a generic pop song' and have been listening to various tracks like dua lipas new song, katy perry's roar etc... to consider instrumental organisation and song structure etc. I think it is possibly down to the recording that a big hitting chorus can't achieved. I'm not the biggest fan of this track. I've never really used a reference track for mixes and obviously plenty of material to do that with this one.... might call it a day with this one though.


vers 2.

so after getting some feedback i've mixed another version. I added some delay on the stuttering vocals bit at the start. Did some automation with the difference vocal parts in the chorus to make it interesting as well as give the chorus more impact... This was done by increasing levels of voxy voice and making it sound echoy in respect to the song name. Also did a bit of automation with the instrumental part and the usual equing here and there

[Roy]

It feels ok but mostly like a quick rough mix. I think it'd definitely benefit from some more panning and automation. I like the increase in the dynamics in the chorus. Tonally it feels good.

I'm not sure it's the case in this mix but I've usually found in programmed/pop songs the general levels of the tracks are printed at the level the producer was hearing them. Instead of getting each track to be the same level maybe try bringing up all the faders to the same level. If that makes sense.

[mikej]

Hi!

Sounding pretty good for a 'not doing much' rough mix. Shows me I need to be working much harder at my initial balances too I think. Looking forward to hear what you come up with if you do decide to do a version 2. I can imagine this sounding really good with a few added effects here and there.

The chorus vocals are a challenge - I found it really tough for my mix to stop the chorus sounding really small. For me the pitch and tone is quite difficult to mix. The vocals sound bigger in the verse as there is less instrumentation, so you have to go some in the chorus to fit everything in and also make it sound big.

Pop music is all about the vocal. In the commercial music world there are guys that specialise in producing/recording/mixing just the vocals for major productions.

To get the upfront vocal sound for pop, for me you really have to take the time to automate every syllable of the vocal before it hits the compressor, to keep it on top of the music. Just using a compressor or two to even out the vocals won't quite cut it I don't think. If you listen to commercial tracks, the vocal delays and reverb are also a really big part of the pop vocal sound, and a huge amount of work goes into that.

I'm with you on your point about the song sounding like an action film theme, its definitely got that feel.

[mikej]

I'm not sure it's the case in this mix but I've usually found in programmed/pop songs the general levels of the tracks are printed at the level the producer was hearing them. Instead of getting each track to be the same level maybe try bringing up all the faders to the same level. If that makes sense.

Interesting!

[Roy]

I'm not sure it's the case in this mix but I've usually found in programmed/pop songs the general levels of the tracks are printed at the level the producer was hearing them. Instead of getting each track to be the same level maybe try bringing up all the faders to the same level. If that makes sense.

Interesting!

It's not a hard and fast rule, certainly. But I've noticed that throughout writing/preproduction there's a lot of internal balancing already going on. Especially with individual instruments, like kicks or snares or string sections etc. Plus these days we're not concerned with each track hitting, say +6/250nWm on tape. Sometimes just bringing up the faders to zero is how they were hearing the song initially. Sometimes not. But it's a decent starting point. Then use your ears.

[mikej]

Sure - I understand it won't always be the case. Similar to BombayMox12, I am also in the habit of gaining each track down to -18db or whatever before I really start to listen and mix. At the moment I generally do this with the master fader muted whilst listening to reference tracks, or the news or whatever. Be fun to check to see if I am missing out on a trick there. I get it works like that with track stems, but honestly never occurred to me to try with these multitracks. You're right though, they have to be bounced down from someones session these days don't they. Nice tip!

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It feels ok but mostly like a quick rough mix. I think it'd definitely benefit from some more panning and automation. I like the increase in the dynamics in the chorus. Tonally it feels good.

I'm not sure it's the case in this mix but I've usually found in programmed/pop songs the general levels of the tracks are printed at the level the producer was hearing them. Instead of getting each track to be the same level maybe try bringing up all the faders to the same level. If that makes sense.

Thanks for the feedback!

Well when i imported the track all the faders were halfway at the same level and it did sound pretty balanced. They were really quiet though so I used LUFs meter and put the lufs at -23db on all tracks to begin with: as done by Mike in the mix competitions such as the song called 'true colour red' or something. Although it didn't occur to me to just jack the volumes up to top of the fader as I thought it was important to always have some room but it would of saved time as it can be quite dejecting when you have to put the lufs meter on every track, especially when you just want to get stuck in...

I appreciate that you think it tonally sounds good. I'll get round to another version soonish and focus on automation (i don't do much of it) and panning.

[[email protected]]

Hi!

Sounding pretty good for a 'not doing much' rough mix. Shows me I need to be working much harder at my initial balances too I think. Looking forward to hear what you come up with if you do decide to do a version 2. I can imagine this sounding really good with a few added effects here and there.

The chorus vocals are a challenge - I found it really tough for my mix to stop the chorus sounding really small. For me the pitch and tone is quite difficult to mix. The vocals sound bigger in the verse as there is less instrumentation, so you have to go some in the chorus to fit everything in and also make it sound big.

Pop music is all about the vocal. In the commercial music world there are guys that specialise in producing/recording/mixing just the vocals for major productions.

To get the upfront vocal sound for pop, for me you really have to take the time to automate every syllable of the vocal before it hits the compressor, to keep it on top of the music. Just using a compressor or two to even out the vocals won't quite cut it I don't think. If you listen to commercial tracks, the vocal delays and reverb are also a really big part of the pop vocal sound, and a huge amount of work goes into that.

I'm with you on your point about the song sounding like an action film theme, its definitely got that feel.

Thanks for your comments! Well I hadn't realized until recently how far you can actually get with just changing the levels in a mix i.e you can get a potentially passable sounding mix, if not rough around the edges.

Yeah the vocals sound less impactfull in the verse than the chorus which doesn't work. There are three tracks in this song though that the singer is unfortunately a bit out of tune (sorry! if you read this singer:/)and i think those parts need to be surgically retuned or left out. But it also does feel like a bridge... or atleast the chorus doesn't sound very big.

Yeah you're right about vocals, especially if it's a female singer which is all that's pretty much on the radio nowadays, as she is bascically the glue that holds everything together.

Automating every sylable sounds daunting, I dread automating even the fade ins! I'll take everything you have said on board, have a listen to some others and submit another version

thanks!

[mikej]

Hi,

I am going to revisit this mix too, and have a try at adding some more obvious vocal effects. I know my vocal effects are lacking, so I've been reading up on guys like Josh Gudwin and the guy that I think produced the Dua Lipa Last Hurrah track, among others.

I don't really like mixes where the vocals sound like they were recorded in some huge cave, or the drums sound like they were played in some metal container lorry or something! My first mixes on here probably sound exactly like that, due to over enthusiastic use of the wrong reverb....

The Pop guys seem to be able to have the reverb, delays and vocal doubles really up front and present, but they also don't hit you in the face. Really cool when you listen out for them, and as you say they really compliment the vocal and the track, and glues everything together. They seem to be really part of the vocal track, wrapped around the vocal, rather than a bolted on effect, if that makes any sense? I figure it's not going to be an easy thing to do.

Regarding vocal automation, I too thought it daunting, but it isn't actually that bad, and I found it quite easy to get the hang of. You just have to get stuck in and go for it! The first track I tried this with on here was 'Lyndsey Ollard - Catching Up', because it seemed to me that it would really benefit the vocals.

That session is also interesting as not only was it recorded at Abbey Road, there are 4 or 5 vocal takes included in the session, so you can also practice making your own vocal comp. It was a lot of fun working out how best to do it in the DAW. Oh, there's also a write up of the session in sound on sound magazine too. I felt I learned a lot from it anyway.

Yeah your mix reminded me that you can get a long way with a good balance. I find automation can also help you get better blends in each song section too - well, I give it a try anyway.

[Roy]

I will say as far as Pop effects and reverbs and delays part of it is just not having them so obvious. Partially by pulling them back and partially by filtering or using a 'thinner' reverb. Or using delays as the reverb sound. Or all the above. A lot of it is tricking the ear and tricking the listener.

This track has a lot of naked areas so just the slightest effects will stand out. But you can use that to your advantage. The occasional reverb or delay hit can influence the listener that there's much more going on. And don't forget contrast. A dry vocal in the verse can make a listener that a chorus vocal sounds huge.

As far as vocal automation, I dunno. I've always been of the mindset that really digging in and comping and automating to the syllable level was mostly to add to the billable time. I was never sure the end result was better, just a decision. To be fair, It's been a long time since I was around Pop mixing but I've seen enough people comp on tape and convince themselves that all that time and effort was worth it. I the end that's all that matters though. If you are content wit the final product it's easier to sell to the artist.