Hope and the Sea

[stevens304]

Hi,

here's my attempt on that one. Was struggling with the sax a bit. I didn't make too much use of any effects other than a bit of ambience. I tried to keep the "live vibe" going.

Feedback appreciated

[sagalegin]

Like it sounds pretty good on these laptop speakers. Like the space on the vocals sax sounds pretty good also. What speakers you use? I'm thinking of doing an analog update for comparison interested to hear your opinion since it sounds like you know what you are doing. I also like the minimal but well placed use of fx.

Only thing maybe some dirt or warmth on the overall in the mids

But great job

[Quathamer]

Hello mate,

Ok yeah I am liking your mix. It has a really nice tonal foundation, which is in my opinion the most important thing you need in a mix besides the lead vocal's clarity, which you also have.

Sax:
I didn't do much to the sax on mine apart from mono sum the 2 channels and automate it in and out as necessary. Processing wise, I rolled off the HPF at about 400hz and a LPF at about 7-8K (I'm going off memory because I'm not in the studio) and then some tonal eq. I used Logic's inbuilt linear EQ to boost a nice fat 3-6db of 500hz and the same again at around 3K-4K. Then I compressed it, and also parallel compressed it with an 1176 black face (UAD plugin) with all the buttons pushed in. Doing this adds lots of lovely harmonics that weren't normally there. I usually parallel comp my lead vocals/instruments if they are crucial to the song so they pop in front of the mix easier without having to do any wild EQs.

Gtrs:
Guitars are a different story. But again nothing unusual. I gated them at a low threshold, panned them hard left and right as you know, and then started cutting and boosting eq until they both were doing what I wanted them to do. The funny thing about cutting and boosting eqs, I've heard people say that you should never boost on an eq. Those same people do some of the worst mixes I've ever heard. I boost all day long! I think on my gtr left (gtr 1) I boosted 2K around 20db. That's what I'm talking about, just do what you gotta do to get it sounding the way you need it to for your mix. And then I compressed it and added a limiter to stop them from taking over. No more than a couple db of gain reduction on the limiter.

Hope that helps!

[stevens304]

Thanks man,

nice to hear that you got what I was going for. I'm always looking for a cohesive sound first and foremost. So we're pretty much on the same page there.

A little more saturation on the sax might actually really help me out! Good tip.

I kinda figured that finding the right volume on the sax goes a long way. I tried eq-ing it and went back to switching it off. I usually embrace dynamics on individual tracks. It helps me keeping a flow going. But the sax might just be to quite at times. :/
That said, I'm not a big fan of automation... I always find myself getting lost tweaking it. When I'm given the time and budget I usually do live mixdowns, so I can adjust levels while I'm printing it to stereo. It obviously takes two or three tries to get it right. But it feels a little more natural to me... Anyway, I didn't do it here.
Shame on the lazy me.

As far as the eqs go, I here you. Especially on analog modelled eqs I find boosting a lot more useful than cutting. Think API, SSL or Pultec. With digital eqs (or stock eqs) I indeed tend to cut more than I boost.
While listening back and forth between the two, I found that my version has a upper midrange harshness in the guitars. I might address that...

Anyway, thanks for having a listen. I'm coming back to your version as soon as I'm back

[Thomas Mueller]

I like the overall tonality of this mix. The drums are a touch too loud i think. Nice vocal reverb, are you compressing it? Sounds like that. The mid frequencies stick aout a bit in the 1.5-2k region, might be the drums bleeding into the vocal mics. On the other hand, The bg vocals sound a bit muffled, i guess you filtered them a lot to reduce the bleeding. But that's all i could find.
The sax sounds nice and full as does the guitar.
Good work on this.

[Mixinthecloud]

Gtrs:
Guitars are a different story. But again nothing unusual. I gated them at a low threshold, panned them hard left and right as you know, and then started cutting and boosting eq until they both were doing what I wanted them to do. The funny thing about cutting and boosting eqs, I've heard people say that you should never boost on an eq. Those same people do some of the worst mixes I've ever heard. I boost all day long! I think on my gtr left (gtr 1) I boosted 2K around 20db. That's what I'm talking about, just do what you gotta do to get it sounding the way you need it to for your mix. And then I compressed it and added a limiter to stop them from taking over. No more than a couple db of gain reduction on the limiter.

Hope that helps!

Nothing unusual...

I need to chime in here and I apologize to Stevens304 for stepping on the discussion of your mix.

I won't go into the debate about boosting or cutting but I do have to ask this: If you need to boost 2K by 20 db, what is wrong with this picture? First, I don't know of many EQs that even gives you the ability to boost by 20 db, and if you need to boost that much, I would conjecture something else is wrong. Either the mic was broken, the guitar player has a very warped sense of humor and needs to taken to the woodshed, or the mixer is taking a very wrong approach. If a guitarist's recorded playing is so far lacking in high end who the hell would work with them if all they were playing was mud. No. That's not it. If you need to boost 20 db @ 2K the approach to the mix is the problem. I'm sorry but if you feel a need to go that far the problem is the mixer not the artist. 20 db of boost at any frequency is a forensic exercise and can hardly be considered musical by any stretch.

Let me ask this. If you ran into a guitarist in a live situation where you needed to boost 2K 20 db, would you? All the crap you would bring up with it would be a real problem at those extremes. Not to mention distortion and clipping, etc.

Going to extremes of a 20 db boost on anything tells me you are trying to make it into something it was never supposed to be. That would be a really good cue you are going down the wrong path. In this genre of music I cannot think how the need to boost a guitar by 20 db @ 2K could ever be considered a benefit to the music. I would need to think the artist would have made that determination well before any note was ever recorded, and acted accordingly. I guess I have enough respect for the recording artist to know when my approach to a song is off if I need to go to such extremes in order to bring it to some kind of aural vision I was going after.

Again, I apologize to Stevens304 for stepping on your post. I will post my review of your mix separately.

[Mixinthecloud]

I like the space you created for the kit but not crazy about how the kick sits in it. There is a low mid tone that seems to be filling up too much space (check to rack tom on this too). I think I would also like to hear more low lows and hi highs to round out the mix's top and bottom. I also think you could spread the guitars more to fill out the sound field. There is good depth in your mix so far. Nicely done.

[Quathamer]

Nothing unusual...

Either the mic was broken, the guitar player has a very warped sense of humor and needs to taken to the woodshed, or the mixer is taking a very wrong approach. If a guitarist's recorded playing is so far lacking in high end who the hell would work with them if all they were playing was mud. No. That's not it. If you need to boost 20 db @ 2K the approach to the mix is the problem. I'm sorry but if you feel a need to go that far the problem is the mixer not the artist.

Ok, I'll bite.

First of all, while Stevens304 might not mind, I do mind. Your comment isn't warranted or wanted. I was asked on my post how I got my guitars how they were, and I told him in this post. It's got nothing to do with you or your opinion on mixing. If you disagree with my methods, its completely irrelevant. No opinion on my methods was asked for, only my approach.

Secondly, who are you to say what is wrong with a mix, or to say that a mixer is taking the wrong approach on anything? Not even a professional career audio engineer, which you are not, can say something like that, only a paying client - maybe - can say something like that.

Lastly, on a more constructive note, this comment is proof of how unaware you seem to be about what the goal of an engineer is. The goal of the engineer is to take a recording and turn it into music - enjoyable music - and not just to make shit sound good, or natural, or whatever. I did WAY worse things in this mix than boost an instrument 20db at 2k, that kind of thing is not unusual. If it was unusual, it would sound unusual. Thus far, I haven't heard any complaints against my guitars sounding unusual. If I hadn't of mentioned the fact I boosted 20db on the guitars, you wouldn't have known. Why? Because the guitars sound hot, and good, and natural, and spacious, and present. That was my goal. If, as an engineer, you're too afraid to do what is necessary to turn a recording into music, then you'll always settle for half-baked, boring, uninteresting mixes that aren't worth listening to. Stop trying to mix and start making music! - that's what's going to be the difference between you and the mixing engineer who is just trying to make it sound good.

[Mixinthecloud]

Ok, I'll bite.

First of all, while Stevens304 might not mind, I do mind. Your comment isn't warranted or wanted. I was asked on my post how I got my guitars how they were, and I told him in this post. It's got nothing to do with you or your opinion on mixing. If you disagree with my methods, its completely irrelevant. No opinion on my methods was asked for, only my approach.

Secondly, who are you to say what is wrong with a mix, or to say that a mixer is taking the wrong approach on anything? Not even a professional career audio engineer, which you are not, can say something like that, only a paying client - maybe - can say something like that.

Lastly, on a more constructive note, this comment is proof of how unaware you seem to be about what the goal of an engineer is. The goal of the engineer is to take a recording and turn it into music - enjoyable music - and not just to make shit sound good, or natural, or whatever. I did WAY worse things in this mix than boost an instrument 20db at 2k, that kind of thing is not unusual. If it was unusual, it would sound unusual. Thus far, I haven't heard any complaints against my guitars sounding unusual. If I hadn't of mentioned the fact I boosted 20db on the guitars, you wouldn't have known. Why? Because the guitars sound hot, and good, and natural, and spacious, and present. That was my goal. If, as an engineer, you're too afraid to do what is necessary to turn a recording into music, then you'll always settle for half-baked, boring, uninteresting mixes that aren't worth listening to. Stop trying to mix and start making music! - that's what's going to be the difference between you and the mixing engineer who is just trying to make it sound good.
[/quote]

If you think it is the responsibility of the engineer to turn recorded players into music, you are in the wrong business, or a big fan of Glyn Johns. Try saying that to you clients. 'It ain't music until I mix it'. Someone needs to climb off their high horse and stop smoking that shit. It is our RESPONSIBILITY to enhance the music we are entrusted with. Understanding the genre and the musicians intent with THEIR music is vital to providing a good product to them. If this was Hip-Hop or a beats based song, those extremes might be more plausible. But its jazz fusion with a touch of funk maybe.

BTW, I have over 20 years in the audio business and have as much right as you to express my opinions based on that experience, whether you agree or not.

There are all kinds of styles in this world. Mine is more paintbrush and palette than hammer and nail. Neither one is right nor wrong.

[Quathamer]

BTW, I have over 20 years in the audio business and have as much right as you to express my opinions based on that experience, whether you agree or not.

My point was, mister 20 years in the audio business, was not to mix as if your just mixing, but to mix as if you're mixing music. I wasn't saying that it isn't music till you mix it. However, I will say that until an engineer does their thing, it will probably sound like garbage especially if it's an amateur recording - hence my argument. The goal, as I have been trying to say, is turning a recording into music, not into something that just sounds good or "enhanced".

And for someone 20 years in the audio business, you've got a pretty poor attitude. You come into our conversation and just start saying "this is wrong, there's something wrong with the mixer, blah blah" so disrespectful. We don't need people like you muddying up the water with your condescending attitude and your piss poor advice. My dude was asking how I did something - because he liked it - and I told him and you immediately started shouting about how wrong it is.

It doesn't matter if your Quincy Jones and have 40 years experience, that's just disrespectful.