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Bitter--the twisted mix
#1
Scissors, paper, stone.


.m4a    Bitter-Monks FourSixMix.m4a --  (Download: 10.07 MB)


"Nearly half of all teenagers and young adults (12-35 years old) in middle- and high-income countries are exposed to unsafe levels of sound from the use of personal  audio  devices": https://tinyurl.com/6xeeahc5 Read my bio.
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#2
Big likes
mark
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#3
Interesting remix!... hope you had fun!
All 10 FytaKyte Multi-Tracks available for you to mix with purchase of Album here: https://fytakyte.bandcamp.com/releases
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#4
(21-05-2019, 09:59 PM)Mark M.O.T.D. Wrote: Big likes
mark

Thanks for dropping by Mark.
"Nearly half of all teenagers and young adults (12-35 years old) in middle- and high-income countries are exposed to unsafe levels of sound from the use of personal  audio  devices": https://tinyurl.com/6xeeahc5 Read my bio.
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#5
(22-05-2019, 08:56 AM)FytaKyte Wrote: Interesting remix!... hope you had fun!

After listening to the preview mix, which I understand is your own, and then downloading the material, I felt there was actually little option. That said, there's nothing here which is so different to the original other than some selective mutes or entire deletions. For example, the shakers were redunant because my vision already had sufficient treble and rhythmic contribution.

There are 58 tracks in the multi, 16 of which are electric guitar tracks wet with delays and modulation, 2 acoustic guitars and 3 bass guitar. I can tell from the instrumental bias what your passion is, however I'm concscious that if there's an acoustic guitar that it needs to be heard with clarity all the way through the register. The same goes in principle with the other elements, especially the keys. I felt both these elements actually had a lot to offer. To be clear, I'm not critiquing the arrangement, but simply understanding it's consequences in the mix process by assessing the issues that stem from it.

But realistically, is there actually enough room between two speakers to fit 58 tracks? Then what about a mono speaker, mindful as I am that all rooms eventually behave like a mono speaker outside of the sweet spot, a region which is usually sour to most people? A good way to check a mix is actually outside the room with the door ajar, something which can't be done with headphones of course - a limitation never discussed in forums but an important lost opportunity in the quality department.

Nothing wrong with passion or enthusiasm, but without impartiality it can be limiting. If we've recorded 58 tracks, it's unlikely we will want to delete any of it. This is your baby, and I understand your reservations.

I would love to know what processing you've applied to the lead vocal so I can better understand the nature of the distortion artifacts.

Thanks for taking a listen and for all your efforts.
"Nearly half of all teenagers and young adults (12-35 years old) in middle- and high-income countries are exposed to unsafe levels of sound from the use of personal  audio  devices": https://tinyurl.com/6xeeahc5 Read my bio.
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#6
I guess I'll be the bad guy here. And I feel bad because I really try not to be critical. But my biggest gripe in mixes is emotions. I've heard beginner mixers present something and I've had a lot of technical issues but dammit I liked what I heard.

Gut reaction. This mix does nothing for me. The musical transitions feel disjointed. At the outset I'll say we have different views as mixers. I'll concede that yes, sometimes, often? a mixer has to make decisions and drop tracks and even parts because their ears hears an error or mistake done in tracking that doesn't add to the track. In this instance those choices have gone to far. Personally, I, as a mixer really try to hear what the intent was in tracking and what the artist wanted. That's paramount. It's not my song. I'll mix bad parts if that's what the artist wants. I can't say I'd make a decision to drop an entire verse. Especially because, why? and because it plays into the resolution of other verses. I'm nit much of a musician but I can feel a progression of a statement and maybe it goes over a bar but sometimes it goes over verses and even an entire song. If I were a causal listener I wouldn't have any desire to give this song my time when no real statement has been presented past the first chorus more than a minute into the song has started.

Let's start with the first minute. The intro feedback is, fine. It seems to intend to support the next three bars but musically it doesn't feel like a "bar" so the next 3 bars (I'll promise to stop saying bars) feel disjointed and the overall phrase fees weird. It feels like coming into the middle of a conversation and I'm trying to catch up on the topic. The long delay at the end of the initial phrase adds to that. It feels like it's punctuating something but I, personally, haven't caught on to what yet.

Further on in the intro it's hard to really even distinguish between the electric and acoustic parts. I know that Fytakyte seemed to want the acoustics up. And on initial listen as a mixer I didn't feel that. So I agree that the arrangement doesn't seem to pull to the artists intent. That aside the electrics feel very clean and clinical. The tone of the guitars all seem similar and don't feel like they're adding anything to each other. I'll admit to not remembering what the original tracks were and what was the choice of the mixer. The keyboard part comes in and adds some warmth but it still just feels "technical". It lacks dynamics. Even into the instrumental chorus (which feels weird musically) the song doesn't really grow. Still, the only point of interest to this point has been the long delay on the intro. It all just feels midrangy and septic. The HH is the loudest drum. It all just reminds me of a DI acoustic. As a listener I keep wanting some growth or explosion. I just wanted some dynamic catch.

The first vocal (which is really the most important element to most listeners) doesn't happen until a third a way into the track. The phrasing of the vocal has a feel of response to a previous vocal part. So it comes across, again, like it's one coming late to a conversation. There are occasion dynamic peaks to the vocal which also feels weird because up until now the whole mix has felt dynamical contained. but these peaks don't seem to add a push. They are random and don't add to a lyrical or musical push. Like on "Get" at 1:18 or "never" at 1:27. Yeah it's because the BGVs come in but since the mix is so dynamically flat so far those peaks really jump out. In fact, through the 2nd chorus (1st w vocals) those bgvs are really the only such in dynamics this mix seems to have and it's 2/3rd done.

There's the bridge and solo and last chorus. But I can't honestly say anything though those parts at all seem interesting or jump out at me as a listener. Overall the mix feels really static and midrangy.

The worst bit of damnation I could say to this mix is it just lacks emotion. There were three bass tracks and I assume the artist had an intent in that choice but it doesn't come through. There were tracks with delay and modulation and none of that came through and in the end one has to say that the artist vision didn't come through. I don't know how this mix sounds outside the room with a door ajar, and frankly I have a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes mono but listening at distance through a door it aint), but over headphones, under "ideal" circumstances, I have to be honest and this mix falls flat. It just lacks emotion and passion. Maybe I could hear every part, I wouldn't know because I had no desire to try to.

When I mixed this (and I'll admit my mixes suck) the first mix was lacking in the acoustic parts and fytakyte mentioned it. As a mixer my job is to support the artist's vision. And from then on I paid attention to the acoustics (and still failed). But I listened to the artist's vision. This mix seems to take all the life out of everything and flattens it and it loses all the music and emotion and passion of the song.

Is there enough room to fit 58 tracks? Yeah. It happens all the time. Never say there's a limit to an artist. In the end it's two tracks. How many colors are two much in a painting?

I appreciate your opinions. I love that there are people on this board who have a lot to say. I'm just offering a different perspective and I hope people read this and make their own opinions. I don't feel like I even really expressed my opinion well at this point so I'm open to discussion.

Cheers!

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#7
always interesting.. but for me it needs more mids and lows.. sounds too anemic.
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#8
(26-05-2019, 09:03 PM)RoyMatthews Wrote: Gut reaction. This mix does nothing for me.

If I was using earbuds, nothing would excite me. You are lucky that you can get any sense of excitement from them.

I must admit, I think the earbud statement is a decoy. It helps make excuses for one thing, and people are more likely to have compassion.

Personally I avoid earbuds due to the colossal sound pressure they create in the ear canal which leads to irreparable hearing damage – NIHL. Headphones aren’t much better. They also make it impossible to judge loudness and hence make compression parameter selection a crapshoot, resulting in over compression, as well as presenting issues with equalisation.

Your mix 03b, which I took at random, has excessive spectral content in the sub 125Hz region which spills into the lower-mid range. Not only does it contribute to a muddy and somewhat fatiguing delivery, but it’s fooling you into thinking the trebles are warmer than they really are. It also makes speakers clip a lot sooner for a given loudness due to excessive energy. But I can make out the acoustic guitar popping out momentarily right up at 16kHz, which is pretty ugly, why not you too?

I think you are fooling yourself; louder appears better, even if it isn’t [better]. It’s a psychoacoustic trap someone with experience would be aware of.

It is certainly much louder than mine (by 4LU’s PL), as well as containing significant non-linear artifacts which adds to the impression of loudness. Mine is more dynamic, and by definition, dynamic is more exciting, having a wider loudness range than yours as well as a higher momentary loudness value. Now that’s not me expressing subjective opinion, but an emotionally detached, unbiased, objective one.

If we factor in your own personal biases, such as taste and partiality which you were clearly expressing, we can understand the reasons behind the haughty demur. The bottom line is that I am hugely impartial, and you are hugely not Big Grin

I can’t help wondering though, reading between the lines, if there’s some mix envy creeping in as well as some pent up frustrations Big Grin Tongue

See you on the circuit.
"Nearly half of all teenagers and young adults (12-35 years old) in middle- and high-income countries are exposed to unsafe levels of sound from the use of personal  audio  devices": https://tinyurl.com/6xeeahc5 Read my bio.
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#9
(30-05-2019, 06:05 AM)Shul Wrote: always interesting.. but for me it needs more mids and lows.. sounds too anemic.

Thanks for listening Shul.

Ordinarily I'd agree, I think this mix is on the brighter side (I'd rather describe it as being "clean"). I found it difficult to deal with the brittle elements, especially the acoustic. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was aliasing during tracking, judging by the unmusical harmonics it was churning out.

One of the challenges in the multitrack is the amount of material across the whole spectrum, not least the low and mid range. It can easily become very congested, something which is apparent in every thread I've since auditioned. The loss of clarity of the acoustic guitar in it's lower register, as well as the keyboard generally, is testiment of the masking and balance issues the arrangement aggravates. It's one of the reasons I felt it appropriate to lose the shakers - already enough going on up in that part of the spectrum at least in my vision.

At the time of mixing, I felt that increasing the low end only helped to muddy the instruments. So I opted for clarity. I'm finding plenty of mids here actually (depending on one's definition of mid), they become very evident when the SPL is raised!

My mix has a direct relationship between the acoustic guitar and the lead. The acoustic is left, more forward, while the egtr is generally right, touch of depth. This was to both help the power fight between them (which ordinarily the acoustic would lose, as is the case in Roymatthews mix), and help me get a better musical relationship between all the instruments rather than let the egtrs wipe everything out.

Have a crack at it and see how you get on.






"Nearly half of all teenagers and young adults (12-35 years old) in middle- and high-income countries are exposed to unsafe levels of sound from the use of personal  audio  devices": https://tinyurl.com/6xeeahc5 Read my bio.
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#10
(31-05-2019, 09:26 AM)Monk Wrote:
(26-05-2019, 09:03 PM)RoyMatthews Wrote: Gut reaction. This mix does nothing for me.

If I was using earbuds, nothing would excite me. You are lucky that you can get any sense of excitement from them.

I must admit, I think the earbud statement is a decoy. It helps make excuses for one thing, and people are more likely to have compassion.

Personally I avoid earbuds due to the colossal sound pressure they create in the ear canal which leads to irreparable hearing damage – NIHL. Headphones aren’t much better. They also make it impossible to judge loudness and hence make compression parameter selection a crapshoot, resulting in over compression, as well as presenting issues with equalisation.

Your mix 03b, which I took at random, has excessive spectral content in the sub 125Hz region which spills into the lower-mid range. Not only does it contribute to a muddy and somewhat fatiguing delivery, but it’s fooling you into thinking the trebles are warmer than they really are. It also makes speakers clip a lot sooner for a given loudness due to excessive energy. But I can make out the acoustic guitar popping out momentarily right up at 16kHz, which is pretty ugly, why not you too?

I think you are fooling yourself; louder appears better, even if it isn’t [better]. It’s a psychoacoustic trap someone with experience would be aware of.

It is certainly much louder than mine (by 4LU’s PL), as well as containing significant non-linear artifacts which adds to the impression of loudness. Mine is more dynamic, and by definition, dynamic is more exciting, having a wider loudness range than yours as well as a higher momentary loudness value. Now that’s not me expressing subjective opinion, but an emotionally detached, unbiased, objective one.

If we factor in your own personal biases, such as taste and partiality which you were clearly expressing, we can understand the reasons behind the haughty demur. The bottom line is that I am hugely impartial, and you are hugely not Big Grin

I can’t help wondering though, reading between the lines, if there’s some mix envy creeping in as well as some pent up frustrations Big Grin Tongue

See you on the circuit.
Ha. No envy here, trust me.

I've never defended any of my mixes. I've even referred to how much they suck in my post. I try different things each time as a learning experiment. Sometimes things works and sometimes they don't. And earbuds are all I have and I know they're a limitation. That said, even with those limitations, I still think my mixes have more emotional impact and speak to the artist and are probably more enjoyable to the end listener and I think that's paramount. The excitement isn't in the earbuds (or whatever the delivery system is) it's in the song. I was mostly upset by how you essentially sucked all of the fun and emotion out of the song and that's the biggest sin of a mixer.

We obviously have different ways and philosophies towards mixing. Which is fine. I learn something from every mix I listen to on here from beginner to the professional. I'm not being haughty but just saying what I'm observing. Maybe I'm not being impartial. If this was a beginner's mix I'd say the same stuff but probably word it a bit softer. As someone whose I'm assuming has more experience I felt you could take more direct criticism. Maybe I was wrong to say anything, for which I apologize. Everyone else seemed to be tip-toeing around it though and I was in a passionate mood to reply. That's not a bad thing though.

Anyhoo, you do your thing and I'll do mine. See you at the next mix.

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