Mozart Piano Concerto No.12 (Pics Mix)

[TheNeverScene]

No idea how to tackle this.

Welcome to my journey of trying to figure this one out. I have put all my mixes back up as per a respected suggestion. Maybe it will help someone along the line.

Mix 9: A picture is worth a thousand words.
Mix 10: The same, less verb...my best yet I think.

Mix 1: Just dove in, lots of odd eqs with steep roll offs and compression...bad.
Mix 2: Same as mix 1, with hi pass adjusted to reduce boom of bad eq'ing.
Mix 3: Doesn't really exist we've all done that
Mix 4: Referenced several recordings of the same piece. Aborted old eq's, slow roll offs, barely any compression, repositioned spot mics, removed reverb from entire mix and put on hall mics (where it has stayed)...sounding much better
Mix 5: Messing around with VoS Prefix and aligning the L/R channels of the Main, Outriggers and Hall pairs to their respective piano. Did the same with the Piano pair. Meh.

At this point, I was getting frustrated with determining where the instrument sections were on stage. They seemed to come from varying directions and what I pictured as a standard orchestra set up wasn't jiving. So, I went to the Gnessin Academy website and checked out some videos. It was a complete eye opener! If this was performed in the same space, I now understand why the frequencies may be bouncing all over the place...

EDIT: So NOW there are pics of the recording. YAY!

Mix 6: Ditched the alignment thing (for now).Barely any Main pair due to being on the mono side. Focused more on the outriggers and panned things to it. Mix seemed a little off to the right, so panned to the left to try to compensate.
Mix 7: Brought back Main pair, but not much. Tightened up panning of spot mics to center (not much spread at all at this point). Brought back the PreFix on the piano and added a hair of Headcrusher (poor man's Decapitator) just for some weight and to try and make it pop out a little. Added Focrusrite Red style compressor at 50% mix just to hopefully add some girth and glue things together.
Mix 8: Small low cut and hi boost. No other changes.

Don't judge!

[Dangerous]

Hi Mike,

I would have liked to hear Mix 1 also, just for comparison. I feel you may be over working the bass frequencies a little. I found there was a lovely cohesive effect of all the microphones that seem to manage the bass frequencies in a good way. I also explored the use of high pass filtering on some of the individual tracks but it seemed to upset the balance in this regard and thus aborted. I found checking and adjusting the phase relationship of the mics was a big help. Nothing scientific, just flip and listen. This not only helped with the freq. balance but also with the perceived stereo field. As a bonus it seemed to really opened up the woodwind especially.

I will stay Tuned.

[TheNeverScene]

Hi Mike,

I would have liked to hear Mix 1 also, just for comparison. I feel you may be over working the bass frequencies a little. I found there was a lovely cohesive effect of all the microphones that seem to manage the bass frequencies in a good way. I also explored the use of high pass filtering on some of the individual tracks but it seemed to upset the balance in this regard and thus aborted. I found checking and adjusting the phase relationship of the mics was a big help. Nothing scientific, just flip and listen. This not only helped with the freq. balance but also with the perceived stereo field. As a bonus it seemed to really opened up the woodwind especially.

I will stay Tuned.

Thank you for the great feedback! I put mix 1 back up. I did flip some polarities on some of the mics, probably the wrong ones though :/ At first I liked the bass, then I didn't, then I did again.

[loupi]

nice! in your remarks about my version you said you found the dynamics too much (no fader rides btw, all natural), and for me that is just what is maybe lacking in your mix, dynamics. it stays all a little flat and distant. maybe compression is flattening things down? reverb? and the piano could be maybe a little more defined, especially when he plays fast notes they get a little lost.maybe some phase-work as Dangerous suggested? it did clear things up a great deal for me. nice though!

[Dangerous]

Listening to Mix1 I can see why you went with your approach with the second mix. I'm wondering if the panning of some of the spot mics are causing issues with the room sound overall. My approach was to build my basic sound with the room mics, then introduce the spots panned according to the room placement just enough to add that bit of proximity and definition to that section. Obviously though, this is a very reactive process, so you have to play around a bit. Hopefully then, any eq moves required thereafter should only be minimal.

I hope this helps.

[TheNeverScene]

nice! in your remarks about my version you said you found the dynamics too much (no fader rides btw, all natural), and for me that is just what is maybe lacking in your mix, dynamics. it stays all a little flat and distant. maybe compression is flattening things down? reverb? and the piano could be maybe a little more defined, especially when he plays fast notes they get a little lost.maybe some phase-work as Dangerous suggested? it did clear things up a great deal for me. nice though!

Thanks Loupi...I'm am going to respond in detail to you and Dangerous in a new post shortly to keep it all together.

[TheNeverScene]

Listening to Mix1 I can see why you went with your approach with the second mix. I'm wondering if the panning of some of the spot mics are causing issues with the room sound overall. My approach was to build my basic sound with the room mics, then introduce the spots panned according to the room placement just enough to add that bit of proximity and definition to that section. Obviously though, this is a very reactive process, so you have to play around a bit. Hopefully then, any eq moves required thereafter should only be minimal.

I hope this helps.

Thanks Dangerous, yes it does help. See below (shortly) for a more detailed reply to you and Loupi (not sure how else to respond to you both in one shot).

[TheNeverScene]

Okay, so huge thanks to you both...sorry if this gets winded

Loupi....yes way too much compression, just tickling the peaks now and I revamped the reverb by just applying it to the hall rather than everything. I also used a touch of transient shaper on the piano just to help with clarity.

Dangerous...I had already flipped some phases, so I think we were already on the same page there, but most of my panning was off. Reaper has a width control that you can use to narrow stereo mixes and even reverse the panning...I had reversed the woodwinds and it did not work lol. I think I have it close now, and I sucked the spot mics a little more towards center.
At close listen, I also started catching all the various crackles and pops in various mics at various times. Acon DeClick seemed to do a good job at handling most of it...but it was driving me nuts after a while. Oh, almost forgot....the Pultec style eq in the old mixes is gone (smh). Yeah, that was a fail...

Now for the grand scheme...after I got things better situated, I had a listen to a few recordings of the same piece, so this is completely subjective. I think if we were to sit down with a pro engineer with classical expertise, he would smack our hands with a ruler for more mixing waaaay too loud. They don't seem to get anywhere near 0db. The mixes all seem relatively dark, too, with the piano even darker and well in the mix. Not a whole lot we can do with the level here since it's already pretty much established in the room mics, and dark vs bright is all preference anyway.
Well, I'm starting to bore myself! Grain of salt! Thanks again!

[tjmtruth]

No idea how to tackle this.

Just tried to clean up the noise is some of the tracks (sounded like the mic pre's may have been cranked), as well as various resonances, put the instruments where I thought they went and let the conductor do the rest.

Feedback and bashing welcome

Mike

Update: Mix 4 (well, really mix 7, but who's counting). Total rethink. Got some great advise from Dangerous and Loupi on their approaches and referenced some other recordings of the same piece...this is where I've ended up.

---------------
Nice smooth mix.....enjoyed it! Pleasure listening to it!

Peace,

Tom

[Dangerous]

Not too sure on Mix#5, the bass frequencies seem to be falling apart again. In saying that I think Mix#4 is sounding great and works really well. A great improvement on the first mix. It's always good to experiment all the same. Well Done.

Mike, you should put your first mixes back up on the thread with your latest ones, just to compliment the on going conversion. It could be education for other members to listen to the before and after mixes complete with the written dialogue.