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My humble approach to Changing Things, Newly and Nicely Refined
#11
(19-08-2017, 02:41 PM)sagalegin Wrote: Good thick sound. Warm and balanced. Good job like your in a smokey jazz club

Thank you. I was after an intimate 300 seat theater with the listener on stage center.
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#12
What's with the 48kHz?

You need bass, which suggests you have a problem with monitoring? As we know, one part of the spectrum affects all others, so you need everything to work properly. The piano (which isn't a real piano?), needs to be brutally shaped if it's going to have any sort of credibility in the mix. You are instead mixing the harmonics, not the fundamentals and the harmonics combined.

I've yet to hear a piano in stereo, from an audience participation perspective. If you choose to make it stereo, you need to be sure we can point to it, rather than have it spread wide between two speakers with no apparent placement. Image is key, especially as those who follow the genre tend to be pretty picky about detail.

Are the drums facing the wrong way in your presented illusion?

The drum kit has elements which sound full-on frontal and yet with others set back? The stereo width is also exaggerated. Width affects depth and the listener's perception of proximity, so again there's some ambiguity. The kit has spectral and amplitude imbalances between it's elements. Personally speaking, I'd have muted the piano (which is by now getting a little irritating because it's not taking me anywhere), and instead given the drums a solo at 4:00 and made them bang. It's screaming out for it, wouldn't you say?
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#13
(22-08-2017, 01:48 PM)Max Headroom Wrote: What's with the 48kHz?

You need bass, which suggests you have a problem with monitoring? As we know, one part of the spectrum affects all others, so you need everything to work properly. The piano (which isn't a real piano?), needs to be brutally shaped if it's going to have any sort of credibility in the mix. You are instead mixing the harmonics, not the fundamentals and the harmonics combined.

I've yet to hear a piano in stereo, from an audience participation perspective. If you choose to make it stereo, you need to be sure we can point to it, rather than have it spread wide between two speakers with no apparent placement. Image is key, especially as those who follow the genre tend to be pretty picky about detail.

Are the drums facing the wrong way in your presented illusion?

The drum kit has elements which sound full-on frontal and yet with others set back? The stereo width is also exaggerated. Width affects depth and the listener's perception of proximity, so again there's some ambiguity. The kit has spectral and amplitude imbalances between it's elements. Personally speaking, I'd have muted the piano (which is by now getting a little irritating because it's not taking me anywhere), and instead given the drums a solo at 4:00 and made them bang. It's screaming out for it, wouldn't you say?

Nothing in your assessment hits the mark at all. But thanks for the time you spent thinking about it.
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#14
(18-08-2017, 04:06 AM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(17-08-2017, 10:12 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ----------------

Indeed, as you did, I always listen to the overheads to determine approximately where the toms should be panned. I think most every mixing engineer does that unless some type of special effect is being employed.

Cheers.....
Tom

----------------

Tom,

Are you sure of that. Especially in a jazz environment? When I listen to the overheads on this song, I hear the snare coming from the left. I often assume there are evenly spaced matching mics used overhead, but that is only conjecture. There are plenty of excellent mic techniques which do not adhere to this 'standard'. Here is the Glyn Johns technique (https://www.recordingrevolution.com/the-...ng-method/) Very interesting and excellent results. I remember doing a session in a great sounding space and as I was walking up to the kit the drummer was hitting the kick and I could hear the snap and punch of that drum coming right off the floor. I put an RE20 there, about 6 ft. in front of the kit angled at the floor 3 ft. in front of the kick. It was one of the best kick sounds I ever got and gave tremendous depth to the entire kit in the mix. Who knows what's going to work? As a side note, I tried that rig again in other studios and it did not work the way it did in that earlier space.

Check out my new mix. The space I put the players in, is more refined which dictated a new balance.

---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom


tommymarcinek.com - Tommy Marcinek
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#15
(22-08-2017, 02:10 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

Rule breaking is not even a question in audio. It is probably the most subjective thing in the human experience. As for drum mixing perspective, I for one would love to know (when tracks are delivered in stereo like overheads), is left, stage left, or audience left? I have always mixed from the listeners perspective and almost never from the musician's perspective. This decision is based upon listening to mixes with video. When you know a drummers setup and you hear toms go from right to left in the stereo field, you can easily infer the perspective. When we as blind mixers (meaning we did not participate in nor have the ability to communicate with the artists/engineers) make decisions on placement of instrument in a drum mix, we have a few immediate decision to make. 1: Determining left and right (audience or stage), 2: Is the drummer left handed or right handed. Since we have none of that info nor the miking technique used to record drums, if any (i.e.: samples), we are pretty much free to do any placement we like. I like to mix visually meaning I try to mix so you can see the location of the players and their instruments. But that is just me and it varies according to genre.
PreSonus Studio One DAW
[email protected]
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#16
(22-08-2017, 02:32 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:10 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

Rule breaking is not even a question in audio. It is probably the most subjective thing in the human experience. As for drum mixing perspective, I for one would love to know (when tracks are delivered in stereo like overheads), is left, stage left, or audience left? I have always mixed from the listeners perspective and almost never from the musician's perspective. This decision is based upon listening to mixes with video. When you know a drummers setup and you hear toms go from right to left in the stereo field, you can easily infer the perspective. When we as blind mixers (meaning we did not participate in nor have the ability to communicate with the artists/engineers) make decisions on placement of instrument in a drum mix, we have a few immediate decision to make. 1: Determining left and right (audience or stage), 2: Is the drummer left handed or right handed. Since we have none of that info nor the miking technique used to record drums, if any (i.e.: samples), we are pretty much free to do any placement we like. I like to mix visually meaning I try to mix so you can see the location of the players and their instruments. But that is just me and it varies according to genre.

-------------
Oh I agree with everything you said. Drum mixes are a delicate thing if, say, the artist WANTS it to be mixed from the audience perspective. I was thinking about someone who critiqued one of my mixes a while back who simply went on and on about mixing drums from the audience perspective and that I was doing it wrong by mixing from the drummer's perspective. I then gave numerous examples of famous and pro songs mixed that way.....never heard from him again....LOL.

----> I'm just a bit upset about someone here in your thread (and I think we know who we are talking about cause the comment is still up). I'm surprised that Mike didn't delete it because it was a thrashing, disingenuous, nonconstructive and condescending comment, and I'm sorry for you that SHE chose your mix to bash like that. Not only that, SHE actually trashed the artists and engineer/s who recorded the tracks. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Later,
Tom

tommymarcinek.com - Tommy Marcinek
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#17
(22-08-2017, 02:44 PM)tjmtruth Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:32 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:10 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

Rule breaking is not even a question in audio. It is probably the most subjective thing in the human experience. As for drum mixing perspective, I for one would love to know (when tracks are delivered in stereo like overheads), is left, stage left, or audience left? I have always mixed from the listeners perspective and almost never from the musician's perspective. This decision is based upon listening to mixes with video. When you know a drummers setup and you hear toms go from right to left in the stereo field, you can easily infer the perspective. When we as blind mixers (meaning we did not participate in nor have the ability to communicate with the artists/engineers) make decisions on placement of instrument in a drum mix, we have a few immediate decision to make. 1: Determining left and right (audience or stage), 2: Is the drummer left handed or right handed. Since we have none of that info nor the miking technique used to record drums, if any (i.e.: samples), we are pretty much free to do any placement we like. I like to mix visually meaning I try to mix so you can see the location of the players and their instruments. But that is just me and it varies according to genre.

-------------
Oh I agree with everything you said. Drum mixes are a delicate thing if, say, the artist WANTS it to be mixed from the audience perspective. I was thinking about someone who critiqued one of my mixes a while back who simply went on and on about mixing drums from the audience perspective and that I was doing it wrong by mixing from the drummer's perspective. I then gave numerous examples of famous and pro songs mixed that way.....never heard from him again....LOL.

----> I'm just a bit upset about someone here in your thread (and I think we know who we are talking about cause the comment is still up). I'm surprised that Mike didn't delete it because it was a thrashing, disingenuous, nonconstructive and condescending comment, and I'm sorry for you that SHE chose your mix to bash like that. Not only that, SHE actually trashed the artists and engineer/s who recorded the tracks. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Later,
Tom

As you have stated so well, there are no rights or wrongs in this. If I or you were to reverse the perspective on our drum mix I have a feeling we would be the only ones who would notice. The only people who can definitively state we have a particular perspective on a drum mix would be either the drummer or the recording engineer and his opinion is also subjective.

As for Girl Power, thanks for your defense. I did actually listen to a mix 'she' put up previously and it was a beginner's mix. It had potential though. I do wonder about her assessments though..lack of low end. I wonder what 'she' is listening back with when that statement is made. And her stereo comments on the piano are very curious too. I get the feeling there is a rat's nest of wires in 'her' environment and some wires are crossed.
PreSonus Studio One DAW
[email protected]
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#18
(22-08-2017, 03:08 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:44 PM)tjmtruth Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:32 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:10 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

Rule breaking is not even a question in audio. It is probably the most subjective thing in the human experience. As for drum mixing perspective, I for one would love to know (when tracks are delivered in stereo like overheads), is left, stage left, or audience left? I have always mixed from the listeners perspective and almost never from the musician's perspective. This decision is based upon listening to mixes with video. When you know a drummers setup and you hear toms go from right to left in the stereo field, you can easily infer the perspective. When we as blind mixers (meaning we did not participate in nor have the ability to communicate with the artists/engineers) make decisions on placement of instrument in a drum mix, we have a few immediate decision to make. 1: Determining left and right (audience or stage), 2: Is the drummer left handed or right handed. Since we have none of that info nor the miking technique used to record drums, if any (i.e.: samples), we are pretty much free to do any placement we like. I like to mix visually meaning I try to mix so you can see the location of the players and their instruments. But that is just me and it varies according to genre.

-------------
Oh I agree with everything you said. Drum mixes are a delicate thing if, say, the artist WANTS it to be mixed from the audience perspective. I was thinking about someone who critiqued one of my mixes a while back who simply went on and on about mixing drums from the audience perspective and that I was doing it wrong by mixing from the drummer's perspective. I then gave numerous examples of famous and pro songs mixed that way.....never heard from him again....LOL.

----> I'm just a bit upset about someone here in your thread (and I think we know who we are talking about cause the comment is still up). I'm surprised that Mike didn't delete it because it was a thrashing, disingenuous, nonconstructive and condescending comment, and I'm sorry for you that SHE chose your mix to bash like that. Not only that, SHE actually trashed the artists and engineer/s who recorded the tracks. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Later,
Tom

As you have stated so well, there are no rights or wrongs in this. If I or you were to reverse the perspective on our drum mix I have a feeling we would be the only ones who would notice. The only people who can definitively state we have a particular perspective on a drum mix would be either the drummer or the recording engineer and his opinion is also subjective.

As for Girl Power, thanks for your defense. I did actually listen to a mix 'she' put up previously and it was a beginner's mix. It had potential though. I do wonder about her assessments though..lack of low end. I wonder what 'she' is listening back with when that statement is made. And her stereo comments on the piano are very curious too. I get the feeling there is a rat's nest of wires in 'her' environment and some wires are crossed.

--------
Indeed, well said. By the way, you were so controlled in your response to her. I admire you for keeping your cool. You are a better man than I am, as it is said. :-)

Tom

tommymarcinek.com - Tommy Marcinek
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#19
(22-08-2017, 02:44 PM)tjmtruth Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:32 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote:
(22-08-2017, 02:10 PM)tjmtruth Wrote: ---------------
Ya know, you are probably right about the overheads. I know Jazz purists love the drums to sound a certain way....almost mono. But, for most other genres and other materials in this forum, listening to the overheads gives a clear indication of just where the "spread & location" are of the toms, hat, etc. :-) I also always mix from the drummer's perspective, and some of the best "pro" mixes I've heard both in Jazz/Fusion and other genres are mixed that way. That's why it confuses me when some people get all bent out of shape when you mix drums that way. Once thing is that "rules" are meant to be broken and in today's world there are no longer ANY rules.....hee heeee. I know you agree with me on that.

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

Rule breaking is not even a question in audio. It is probably the most subjective thing in the human experience. As for drum mixing perspective, I for one would love to know (when tracks are delivered in stereo like overheads), is left, stage left, or audience left? I have always mixed from the listeners perspective and almost never from the musician's perspective. This decision is based upon listening to mixes with video. When you know a drummers setup and you hear toms go from right to left in the stereo field, you can easily infer the perspective. When we as blind mixers (meaning we did not participate in nor have the ability to communicate with the artists/engineers) make decisions on placement of instrument in a drum mix, we have a few immediate decision to make. 1: Determining left and right (audience or stage), 2: Is the drummer left handed or right handed. Since we have none of that info nor the miking technique used to record drums, if any (i.e.: samples), we are pretty much free to do any placement we like. I like to mix visually meaning I try to mix so you can see the location of the players and their instruments. But that is just me and it varies according to genre.

-------------
Oh I agree with everything you said. Drum mixes are a delicate thing if, say, the artist WANTS it to be mixed from the audience perspective. I was thinking about someone who critiqued one of my mixes a while back who simply went on and on about mixing drums from the audience perspective and that I was doing it wrong by mixing from the drummer's perspective. I then gave numerous examples of famous and pro songs mixed that way.....never heard from him again....LOL.

----> I'm just a bit upset about someone here in your thread (and I think we know who we are talking about cause the comment is still up). I'm surprised that Mike didn't delete it because it was a thrashing, disingenuous, nonconstructive and condescending comment, and I'm sorry for you that SHE chose your mix to bash like that. Not only that, SHE actually trashed the artists and engineer/s who recorded the tracks. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Later,
Tom

Her "critiques" sound an awful lot like a certain "Artful Renegade" who recently left the forum don't you think......
Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
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#20
Man, I am actually the composer and guitarist of this tune. I think is my favorite mix that I've heard.
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