02-07-2013, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013, 03:48 AM by APZX.)
So, when I did my first mix of this track I made it far too smiley curved (something I have a tendency to do when I mix quickly). I then completely restarted the mix and I think the result turned out okay.
Now, some quick notes of how I decided to approach the mix as a whole. The first bit that I actually started with was the drums and just get them sounding pretty darn good. Once I had them in place about the way I wanted them to be is when I approached the other elements. I realize the Acoustic Guitars are pretty low in overall volume, but I found that it would be a compromise between them and both the Electric Guitar and the Piano. So, I opted to put the Electric Guitar and Piano more up front in the mix. Also, I realize that the vocals are not particularly bright and I found I was fighting the sibilance to get them brighter. So, I opted for a combination of different EQs, a De-esser, and a single compressor to get them sounding about the way I wanted.
But the approach was pretty simple and that was to get a mix that basically gave some power to the composition. Nothing really special.
Edit - Uploaded a modified version of the mix. I noticed that the kick was getting a little buried in a couple of parts and the Acoustic Guitar was in the center when I meant to place it out more in the stereo field.
(02-07-2013, 04:42 PM)APZX Wrote: So, when I did my first mix of this track I made it far too smiley curved (something I have a tendency to do when I mix quickly). I then completely restarted the mix and I think the result turned out okay.
Now, some quick notes of how I decided to approach the mix as a whole. The first bit that I actually started with was the drums and just get them sounding pretty darn good. Once I had them in place about the way I wanted them to be is when I approached the other elements. I realize the Acoustic Guitars are pretty low in overall volume, but I found that it would be a compromise between them and both the Electric Guitar and the Piano. So, I opted to put the Electric Guitar and Piano more up front in the mix. Also, I realize that the vocals are not particularly bright and I found I was fighting the sibilance to get them brighter. So, I opted for a combination of different EQs, a De-esser, and a single compressor to get them sounding about the way I wanted.
But the approach was pretty simple and that was to get a mix that basically gave some power to the composition. Nothing really special.
WOW far in the back don't no if I can even hear it . but that's cool
did you try running one of the guitar track out phase
It was intentionally placed farther back in the mix. But on the original version I uploaded I had kept it panned dead center when I in fact meant to have it placed out further in the stereo field. My mistake.
I did try some weird stereo stuff, but I personally don't like most of them because they just sound off. Believe it or not I actually prefer those methods on FX sends rather than actual instruments.
-The kick is drowning, and not really working together with the bass guitar. Try to make those complement each other.
- The acoustic guitar sounds rather thin; reduce the hi-pass? Of course the (excess) reverb on the guitar is a matter of taste, personally I find it distracting and not really working.
-The lead vocal is not always up-front in the mix. Try to make the LV stand out more. I think, for example it is fighting with the bass guitar..
- Same taste thing on he delays on the backing vocals...: I think it distracts in a negative way...
Hope it helps!
RJ
(02-07-2013, 04:42 PM)APZX Wrote: So, when I did my first mix of this track I made it far too smiley curved (something I have a tendency to do when I mix quickly). I then completely restarted the mix and I think the result turned out okay.
Now, some quick notes of how I decided to approach the mix as a whole. The first bit that I actually started with was the drums and just get them sounding pretty darn good. Once I had them in place about the way I wanted them to be is when I approached the other elements. I realize the Acoustic Guitars are pretty low in overall volume, but I found that it would be a compromise between them and both the Electric Guitar and the Piano. So, I opted to put the Electric Guitar and Piano more up front in the mix. Also, I realize that the vocals are not particularly bright and I found I was fighting the sibilance to get them brighter. So, I opted for a combination of different EQs, a De-esser, and a single compressor to get them sounding about the way I wanted.
But the approach was pretty simple and that was to get a mix that basically gave some power to the composition. Nothing really special.
Edit - Uploaded a modified version of the mix. I noticed that the kick was getting a little buried in a couple of parts and the Acoustic Guitar was in the center when I meant to place it out more in the stereo field.
I don't get exactly what you mean by the kick being drowned. I get that the kick is not dominating the mix nor did I feel it was necessary for that to happen. In fact the kick has almost no Mid range to it to allow the bass to come through more clearly. The kick is actually click and a gated tone generator set to ~36Hz. Furthermore, the bass is sidechained to it (though not an extreme amount only enough to let the sub info and click come through more clearly). So, what I don't understand is what the problem is? Every system I've listened to this mix on the kick does its function flawlessly each time.
Which Acoustic Guitar? Both of the originals are not the exactly the fullest sounding in the first place. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise though because the Piano needed space to sit. Additionally to give a little more definition to the slightly lower harmonics of the percussion cutting some out of the Acoustic Guitars actually helped. So, what exactly is problem you've got with it? The reverb is there because if it weren't then that Acoustic Guitar would actually coming piercing out of the Left channel. I have no idea why it works that way but it does.
I really don't see how the lead vocal is fighting the bass at all. Seriously, I don't get this. The vocal sits exactly where and how I wanted it to in the mix. Sure I added tons of 4KHz to the bass but that isn't a problem when you've got vocals that are so bright and having to use automation, EQ, and De-essing, compression, and EQ to get them sounding about right. Maybe the vocals are not as up front as you'd like them to be. Squeezing every ounce of dynamic range out of them and making them sound unnatural. Not that mine sound perfectly natural. Also, both the Backing Vox and Lead Vox have the delay on them. Only once did the backing vox have the delay on them when the Lead Vox did not.
I mean I get not liking certain aspects of a mix but honestly I'm not quite sure I get where you're coming from with these.
Regarding the kick: after listening on a larger monitor system 'drowning' was not the right word (it's not fighting in terms of frequencies, you're right!).
What I meant (and heard on a smaller system) is that the bass and kick is not working together optimally. My guess is that a fundamental of 36Hz for the kick is too 'sub-by'. I think that shifting the fundamental of the kick to a higher frequency will have more impact and will complement better with the bass guitar.
The acoustic guitar: I was referring to the one in the intro. Not really feeling that part, probably just taste!
In the rest of the song you chose to discard almost all the acoustic guitars (at least not clearly present), which is of course not a good or a bad thing!
Elaborating on the LV: The bass guitar has a lot of energy around 300Hz, I think this competes with the LV. In prechorus 2 the LV also seems to be competing with the piano. I think the piano has too much low mids there. I am not saying smash 'n compress the LV is the way to go, but I think carving more space in the other tracks will help the LV stand out more. Probably panning the instruments more off-centre will also help in this.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers!
(03-07-2013, 04:18 PM)APZX Wrote: Erjee,
Now, you've got my interest piqued a little bit.
I don't get exactly what you mean by the kick being drowned. I get that the kick is not dominating the mix nor did I feel it was necessary for that to happen. In fact the kick has almost no Mid range to it to allow the bass to come through more clearly. The kick is actually click and a gated tone generator set to ~36Hz. Furthermore, the bass is sidechained to it (though not an extreme amount only enough to let the sub info and click come through more clearly). So, what I don't understand is what the problem is? Every system I've listened to this mix on the kick does its function flawlessly each time.
Which Acoustic Guitar? Both of the originals are not the exactly the fullest sounding in the first place. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise though because the Piano needed space to sit. Additionally to give a little more definition to the slightly lower harmonics of the percussion cutting some out of the Acoustic Guitars actually helped. So, what exactly is problem you've got with it? The reverb is there because if it weren't then that Acoustic Guitar would actually coming piercing out of the Left channel. I have no idea why it works that way but it does.
I really don't see how the lead vocal is fighting the bass at all. Seriously, I don't get this. The vocal sits exactly where and how I wanted it to in the mix. Sure I added tons of 4KHz to the bass but that isn't a problem when you've got vocals that are so bright and having to use automation, EQ, and De-essing, compression, and EQ to get them sounding about right. Maybe the vocals are not as up front as you'd like them to be. Squeezing every ounce of dynamic range out of them and making them sound unnatural. Not that mine sound perfectly natural. Also, both the Backing Vox and Lead Vox have the delay on them. Only once did the backing vox have the delay on them when the Lead Vox did not.
I mean I get not liking certain aspects of a mix but honestly I'm not quite sure I get where you're coming from with these.
I can get behind the kick being too subby. I did actually try a blending of two different sine waves and a sine and triangle. Essentially because it sounds to me that the Bass Guitar sits around D (and I believe the key to be some kind of D) I used 36.71Hz to generate that low fundamental. I'm personally a huge fan of E which sits at 41.2Hz. Anyway, the problem that I found when trying this was that the kick took up too much sonic space. Even with some clever sidechaining on the bass it was not enough. In v2 up there the kick is sidechaining, the Overheads, extra drums, bass, and all the guitars. The whole idea is to get more of the click of the kick out for the smaller speakers and by letting the bass rule the low end much more than the kick. Really, the entire kick is a whole system of compromises to get where it is. Now, I've listened to this on my monitors, Neumann KH120A. My 2.1 system, currently a pair of Tannoy 501a and a SVS SB12-NSD. My headphones, AKG K271MKII. My car, some kind of Pioneer speakers and a couple of 10" Kenwood subs (the system is actually surprisingly good sounding). The final is actually like a $25 pair of Cyber Acoutics tiny easily distorting speakers. If I can get a mix to sound reasonable out of those it probably works. Amazingly on every single one of those the kick does what it is supposed to each time. It is not the prettiest sounding kick I agree, but I cannot really think of a better way to do the kick
Okay, you're talking about the Rhythm Acoustic Guitar. Gotcha. So, the notion on this was to make the piano more audible. While it doesn't have much input on the rhythm of the track I found that by pushing the percussion up more in the mix gave the rhythm I felt that was necessary. So, what I did was put basically make the acoustic guitar very wide. The main part that can be heard is actually in the left channel pretty much all the time. It is not very up front in the mix because I wanted the overheads and percussion to be more prominent. Much like the kick though regardless of the system I've listened to it on, I can still easily pick it out. I guess it is a taste kind of thing with it though. I've said this before and I'll say it again if I have a chance to feature something other than a guitar I will. In this case I gave the piano a bit more presence.
I'm not entirely sure with the lead vocal. Here is where more compromises come in. See, the problem with giving more presence to the vocals in the lower mids makes the bass and the piano harder to hear on smaller speakers. The other big problem I found with the vocals was the fact they were too darn bright. The biggest saving grace to them was that they were not excessively sibilant. The actual processing chain I did to them goes like this; 4.7KHz bell boost, 10KHz bell cut, De-esser (actually over de-essing), 15KHz shelf boost, 200Hz HPF, Compression. I could lower the HPF about 100Hz or use a 1-Pole filter, but that ultimately causes more issues. So, like the kick it is a compromise to make a better illusion in terms of everything. If made the vocals too much brighter I'd be in direct competition with the percussion and overheads. If give more emphasis to the bottom of the vocal then I start directly competing with the piano and bass. If I overemphasize the mid range then I start competing directly with the guitars. It really turns into quite a delicate balance to get them to fit where I feel they need to fit. A quick note about the panning. See, if I start using the panning to do the mixing then I run into the problem of the mix sounding like crap in either mono or very narrow stereo systems. I feel it is very important to focus on working with the mono of the track.
Again it is just a bunch of compromises to create an illusion which most mixes are. I really do appreciate the comments though. I'm seriously at a loss though to think of other ways of approaching this mix. I mean I can think of a few other ways of doing it. For example replacing the kick and the snare with different samples entirely. But then more questions pop up about how to handle different parts of the track. Really this song turned into a series of compromises to get it sounding about right.
