Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 3.67 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
All I Know: 80s Mix
#11
the Final mix works much better. the kick/bass imbalance [in mono] is fixed now too. I assume the piano came wet like this? if so, it's a shame the reverb can't be lessened (if it's a stereo signal, would it lose some verb if downmixed to mono perhaps? just a thought). it's too far back in the depth field otherwise, making it sound washy and losing some clarity along with it. you didn't feed it more reverb by any chance? if it had been dry, it would have helped move the song along, dropping it back, then pulling it forwards at appropriate times in orchestration with the other edits. ho hum..

enjoyed the listen from the work you've put into it Big Grin
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
Reply
#12
(14-09-2016, 10:31 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: the Final mix works much better... I assume the piano came wet like this?

Many thanks Cool Was a fun little project.

The track you mentioned was a blended piano and pad ... it fulfills neither role well. I mono'd it, ADT (doubled), and EQed heavily. There's a tiny bit of reverb to blend the sides, but unfortunately a lot of reverb was printed in. (Should have just figured the chord sequence out, and put a few pads and arps in from Alchemy instead, would have taken less time!)

I did print a slightly dryer version. Was it possible to ever have *too* much reverb on an 80's track? You just throw a gate on it to tame the decay tail! Confused
All sound is a distortion of silence / soundcloud.com/jeffd42
Reply
#13
(14-09-2016, 04:36 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: Your comment was spot on. I put the mix up today on the Bose 2+1 system in the lounge (this being frowned upon at midnight, when I posted). For all its faults, the Bose highlights issues in the low-mids. I made two corrections: (1) to cut the 3rd-5th harmonics of the kick further; and, (2) dropped the baseline 2db, bringing it up more selectively in a few sections.

I just downloaded the mp3 of the final mix off of the forum this time, the mud is gone from the low end and the automation of the bass in the track really breaks up the song more, good work Cool.

I noticed that compared to my mastered mix that you've actually got less low end going on and more midrange going on, my mix has a more smiley face eq balance and a fair amount of low end going on which tends to make it sound more mushy. The snare in your mix also is lower down which allowed you to turn your mix up abit more than mine. I'm assuming that your mix also works better on smaller speakers and phones because of these differences in balance

The comment about the loudness wars is pretty spot on, I had to do a presentation when I went to audio school on a topic of my choice and I chose to do it on mastering and the level wars that have been going on. The reason for the loudness wars was that jukeboxes in bars and clubs had to be heard over a crowd of loud/drunk patrons. Record companies as a result ordered that singles played it clubs should be mastered as hot as possible in hopes of being able to be heard, this idea of having louder masters eventually crossed over to radio, Motown Records are actually one of the originators of this trend and part of the Motown sound is a heavy reliance on driving compressors hard. In the 80's with more and more use of synth based instruments and drum machines in pop music dynamics became less noticeable because the velocity sensitivity of alot of synths at the time was pretty limited and of course running into tape machines also did some of it's own compression to the sound. From about 1991 is when the loudness wars really started to push music in a less dynamic and more in your face direction with Nirvana's Nevermind, Metallica's Black Album, and in 1992 Alice in Chains' Dirt. These records still had dynamics to them but were way hotter in level when compared with similar rock records in the 80's. Really the album that popularized the brickwalled chaos we have now is Oasis' What's the Story Morning Glory, the waveforms on that album pretty much look like a Kit Kat bar. From then on in the 2000's we pretty much got to the point of just clipping and squashing the life out of records, the extremes being Death Magnetic by Metallica and the CD master of Stadium Arcadium by Red Hot Chili Peppers ( the vinyl version is mastered by Steve Hoffman and is really dynamic and punchy sounding).

Welp, that went on longer than I was expecting, sorry for the thesis on dynamics in mastering! There's more on this subject written by way more qualified sources but this is my basic understanding of the subject and I'm probably butchering alot of points, but here it is.

Cheers and congrats on the mix,
Dcp


Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
Reply
#14
(14-09-2016, 11:28 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: The track you mentioned was a blended piano and pad ... it fulfills neither role well. I mono'd it, ADT (doubled), and EQed heavily. There's a tiny bit of reverb to blend the sides, but unfortunately a lot of reverb was printed in. (Should have just figured the chord sequence out, and put a few pads and arps in from Alchemy instead, would have taken less time!)

thanks for the info.

Quote:I did print a slightly dryer version. Was it possible to ever have *too* much reverb on an 80's track?

good point!! lol

Quote:Mastering: I have this session set up with reference tracks so I can A/B/C switch, and use that to lock in the appropriate tonality, brightness and stereo image...............

how are we loudness matching the ref tracks?

how can we overcome the ear's non-linear characteristics?

how do we compensate for the large differences in frequency response between the reference tracks themselves?

how do we overcome the problem of the combined frequency response of the monitors and the room and it's consequences in impairing judgement?

just some questions i'd ask myself (partly triggered by your Bose comment)

Quote:..............Then I'll see how it sounds as a 320kbps MP3 and 128k MP3 (Soundcloud), and may adjust the top end of the EQ a little, if it’s getting hammered during the transcoding.

this isn't necessary. paragraph "on a technical point..." of this post above refers: http://www.discussion.cambridge-mt.com/s...5#pid50675. it was important.

go easy Wink
laters dude,,,
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
Reply
#15
(14-09-2016, 11:28 PM)jeffd42 Wrote:
(14-09-2016, 10:31 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: the Final mix works much better... I assume the piano came wet like this?

The track you mentioned was a blended piano and pad ... it fulfills neither role well. I mono'd it, ADT (doubled), and EQed heavily. There's a tiny bit of reverb to blend the sides, but unfortunately a lot of reverb was printed in. (Should have just figured the chord sequence out, and put a few pads and arps in from Alchemy instead, would have taken less time!)

Jeff, i've just fired up the multi as inquisitiveness and a furtive mind got the better of me with this piano thing. you've overlooked something major as indeed have 2 full pages of threads of this song (is there an exception?). at least you are not alone Big Grin

this opens up a whole new load of opportunities for a more interesting and creative mix.... Angel Cool

v4? bringggggg it onnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.mp3    Piano-dry.mp3 --  (Download: 4.2 MB)


Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
Reply
#16
(15-09-2016, 01:41 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Mastering: I have this session set up with reference tracks so I can A/B/C switch, and use that to lock in the appropriate tonality, brightness and stereo image...............

I just level match by ear. The references are not there for loudness, rather for tonality: how prominent the various instruments are in mixes from that genre/period.

On the Piano/Synth combo: The piano is dry, the synth pad had some sort of stereo chorus or reverb treatment. Couldn't separate the two! Didn't want a mono pad in the center, behind the vocal. That was the problem!

For fun: Uploaded a version with slightly more modern mixing tastes ... take your pick of lots'a-reverb (80s style), or with less reverb (90s onwards) Smile
All sound is a distortion of silence / soundcloud.com/jeffd42
Reply
#17
(15-09-2016, 03:43 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: I just level match by ear. The references are not there for loudness, rather for tonality: how prominent the various instruments are in mixes from that genre/period.

On the Piano/Synth combo: The piano is dry, the synth pad had some sort of stereo chorus or reverb treatment. Couldn't separate the two! Didn't want a mono pad in the center, behind the vocal. That was the problem!

For fun: Uploaded a version with slightly more modern mixing tastes ... take your pick of lots'a-reverb (80s style), or with less reverb (90s onwards) Smile

On a side note, for some reason this track reminds me alittle of Don't Forget Me (When I'm Gone) by Glass Tiger. I'm still more a fan of the more 80's sounding mix but both versions have their own merits and do work with the feel of the track.

Dcp

Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
Reply
#18
(15-09-2016, 03:43 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: The references are not there for loudness, rather for tonality

Fletcher Munson...just a couple of dB can present a different perspective, especially in the upper mids onwards, the zone where presence resides....but if you think it works for you, do it i say Big Grin

Quote:Didn't want a mono pad in the center, behind the vocal. That was the problem!

problem? nooooo, a couple of solutions attached which would sound much better than what you had...but there's many options Wink

i think i might mix this Big Grin


.mp3    JEFF42-01v1_padL_pianoR.mp3 --  (Download: 644.9 KB)


.mp3    JEFF42-01v2_STEREOPAD_pianoR.mp3 --  (Download: 644.9 KB)


Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
Reply
#19
(16-09-2016, 09:56 AM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Didn't want a mono pad in the center, behind the vocal. That was the problem!

I see your thinking on pulling the track across the soundstage (pad more on one side, piano the other). The reason that particular treatment sounded odd to my ear (at least in this particular mix) was that I usually find pads want to be diffuse, whereas percussive instruments (like the piano) want to be at a defined point in the soundstage (L/C/R typically).

In this particular case: Having the piano off to one side didn’t feel right. On the other hand, when the piano is centered, it competes with the vocal (and to some extent the guitars). The combined patch also uses most of the spectrum, so I needed to EQ it heavily. Now it serves to fill gaps within the spectrum that could use some ambiance. Here’s the track after processing.



.mp3    PianoSynth.mp3 --  (Download: 2.06 MB)


All sound is a distortion of silence / soundcloud.com/jeffd42
Reply
#20
Interesting Post and great reading. Version #4, 90's mix is my favourite. Things seem to work the best for me in this mix including the drum sounds. I like the insertion of the piano part in the middle of the song. This part of the song had the tendency to become stagnant and this helps it move on nicely. Nice Arranging.Big Grin Well Done.

Dave
Reply