yo Jeff,
i took a stab at this last year, and decided to delete it from my DAw after half an hour of poking the files about, and instead take the dog for a walk, despite not having a dog.
talking of dogs, i found the multi to be mega-ultra-ridiculously over compressed and therefore impossible to mix, so well done for having a crack at it and especially for putting up with the bass line.
knowing how hard it is to balance hyper compressed material in a mix, i think you've done well here. i'd bring the synth out during the verses though, it's a little behind things and could offer some contrast to the otherwise dominant bass, then let the bass snort during the choruses perhaps.
the bad news is that you have no microdynamic here and the macrodynamic is kind of AWOL too. but it's loud...and we all think around here that loud is good but in reality it's flat and lifeless when properly referenced against a dynamic presentation. i'd recommend revisiting your compression strategy and pulling everything off and seeing if this helps to bring a bit of life and soul back to the music. but from what i remember, i wouldn't count on it. dude, let it go, move on
regards (not seen you around for a while!),
BigDave
12-09-2016, 11:49 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2016, 01:40 PM by jeffd42.)
Hey BigDave. Many thanks for your comments.
Tied up the past 3-4 months, with little time for mixing, sadly! But, I'm back...
'Tis an interesting track. I listened to the guitars, and thought of something like the Cure and all those miscellaneous 80's guitar, synthpop, bands. The baseline/kik/snare running through the song comes from there -- but the levels were a bit off on the mix.
(Had to use headphones for this mix, and realized once I made it back today and put this up on monitors that the mix balance, tonality and spacial arrangement were all broken. Low-mids from the guitars, bass and synths stomping all over each other).
Appreciate your thoughts on whether the new mix is an improvement!
there's a very noticeable difference overall in the v2, it's got some musicality i missed from the first version - well done for that. i'm kinda still yearning for more dynamics though, and i'm not sure how much scope there is in salvaging this from the recordings, not having mixed it myself. it might be an idea to dig into the upward expanders to try and get a little more bounce going perhaps, but that brings it's own issues. i dunno.
it also sounds much clearer too, with better separation, but again it's this darn compression thing that's going to haunt you because everything wants to stick out due to each track's high RMS. anyway, the only things i'd flag up for consideration if you fancy, are the kick/bass combo and the snare reverb, and the radio FX. in mono, the kick is above the bass. if you wanted to make the kick more roomy without necessarily losing it's proximity, i'd fiddle about with the kick's attack/beater and put some of it into the room's ambiance so it contributes to the performance rather than sounding somewhat detached (but keep the bass element out, of course)? but i guess it depends on what you are after in relation to preferences. the snare ambiance could do with EQ to reduce it's low end element which tends to permeate over into the stereo domain (i mean don't lose the stereo, just the low stuff from it). the radio has an earbleeder which suggests it must be around the 3.5kHz zone (maybe the next harmonic above also?); it needs some care because it's right in the sensitive zone and pinches a bit. other than that it only becomes a taste thing......
on a technical point, noting your sample rate: if quality is important to you, i'd strongly recommend backing off your limiter and instead of hitting it often and therefore distorting, just use it as a safety net. 0dB is a loudness era hangover, and DACs will distort. EBU R128 stipulates -1dB for this reason. it's also recommended, if you want to be REALLY listener friendly, to back off to about -3dB before the coder otherwise it has insufficient headroom to do it's thannnngggg and it's 'hello distortion'. turn it up to -1 after, if you fancy. the fact that you are hitting the limiter hard (in relative terms, that is, and i'd also draw to your attention the TruePeak of +0.1) suggests to me that it's costing the song some lost energy and vibe.
your comment about The Cure resonated with me! i bought the 12 incher 'Primary' back in the day and wore it out in the following 2 weeks. 'A Forest' also still gives me goose bumps today - i much preferred their earlier stuff though. despite being local, i never saw them live. but i got to see The Stranglers last year (awesome gig!); Jean Jacques-Burnel was one of Galups influences, didn't you know
13-09-2016, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2016, 03:51 PM by jeffd42.)
> Again it's this darn compression thing that's going to haunt you
There's not much on the master bus; 1-2db of mid/side with Slate FG-MU, TDR Kotelnikov for 1-2db on a very gentle ratio, and the limiter just for protection (it's taking <2db of the highest peaks). I think its more the source material in this case.
> In mono, the kick is above the bass.
Did take a listen in mono, and noted a number of the mix elements move a bit. (Inevitable with widened stereo processing on some elements). Thought it a reasonable compromise between ear candy in stereo, and mono compatibility. Kik is dry(ish), with <200Hz removed from sides, for more of a dance/EDM treatment.
> The snare ambiance could do with EQ to reduce it's low end element.
Yes, agreed. I was looking for a sufficiently trashy sounding gated 80s snare, without quite going to the extremes this tended to be taken to. We'll see if I have it right now!
> Radio has an earbleeder which suggests it must be around the 3.5kHz zone.
Noticed that with fresh ears today. I tried to tame it. Probably not enough.
> Your comment about The Cure resonated with me!
Sadly, never got to see them live. I lived in New Zealand then, can't recall if they made it that far. Which reminds me, I had to explain records to my 7 year old daughter the other day. Big, non-shiny, CDs?
Thanks again for your comments. Very helpful to improving the mix! Posted an update, which should be pretty close. I'll have to take a look at some of the other newer multitracks this weekend.
(13-09-2016, 01:46 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: > Again it's this darn compression thing that's going to haunt you
There's not much on the master bus; 1-2db of mid/side with Slate FG-MU, TDR Kotelnikov for 1-2db on a very gentle ratio, and the limiter just for protection (it's taking <2db of the highest peaks). I think its more the source material in this case.
ok, here goes.....
by the end of the first verse, faders up, rough balance, no processing, naked as a jay bird, we get the following:
PL -16.8
TP: -3.9
ML -13.1
in summary, this is why you shouldn't be deploying a compressor, in my opinion that is, irrespective of how little the amount of reduction is taking place on an individual processor, or cumulatively with compressors in series; the scenario you have here. there's essentially no macro dynamics present that need fixing (PL to ML ratio refers) because they've completely nailed everything. any further dynamic reduction will exponentially affect the audio quality in a negative manner.
the Bass has been clipped in the tracking(!), so that's not going to pop the limiter. if there's anything pushing the limiter, it's most likely due to their printed automation (if left untamed), or a combination of their automation and yours. of course, some frequencies will stack up if there's a congested area, but this can be easily addressed back in the mix with EQ or manual automation....but not compression, eh? if there's an occasional transient rife, set a soft knee perhaps, but you shouldn't need to be reducing here brickwall wise.
a lot of effort for a short reply. i should familiarise myself with a multi first before i give feedback because it would help me focus better on key points. sorry about that.
thanks for the other comments you provided in your previous post.....very interesting.
Quote:Which reminds me, I had to explain records to my 7 year old daughter the other day. Big, non-shiny, CDs?
don't be surprised if you find an LP hanging out the front of the optical drive one day
Quote:Thanks again for your comments. Very helpful to improving the mix! Posted an update, which should be pretty close. I'll have to take a look at some of the other newer multitracks this weekend.
the principle can help guard against future situations involving hypercompressed, printed automation multi's of which there seems to be no shortage in the Library. best be on your guard I think that understanding the nature of the material we are presented with is half the battle in mixing it - or perhaps wisely walking away with sanity intact. but then we can learn so much from inherent problems in multi's too, even taking the opposite approach and exploring upward expansion in order to try and reclaim some dynamic and get a bit more energy working......i've not read one post where anyone has mentioned upward expansion. now there's a thought!
(13-09-2016, 11:08 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: i've not read one post where anyone has mentioned upward expansion. now there's a thought!
Funny enough on my most recent post (a remix of the Justin Myles track), I actually used a Waves RComp in Opto Expantion mode at a ratio of 0.75:1 on the master buss and quite regularly I use an emulation of the SPL Transient designer on my kick and snare. The attack knob from my understanding is basically an upward expander. I didn't mention what I did for processing on that track but for the most part I didn't touch compression, I did use a compressor side chained from the kick drum to the bass in order to glue those together and some LA2a style leveling on the vocals more for the colour of that compressor.
I'm going to have a proper listen to the mixes you put up Jeff, but I just thought I would make a comment to Dave here regarding his fetish for expantion
Cheers,
Dcp
Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer
Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
14-09-2016, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2016, 01:41 PM by jeffd42.)
This has opened into a discussion of how to rescue a difficult track.
A number of suggestions on the thread really helped, and I’ll also share a few of the things I found along the way that may prove helpful (or not!)...
Arrangement: I had to lean heavily on the mute button in order to create contrast. This helps create long-term dynamics and transitions from: simple to complex; narrow to wider stereo image; and different elements moving in/out of focus. (The guitar solo, after the breakdown, uses all of these techniques.)
Individual Tracks: There are several challenges present in the recordings. Consequently, quite a range of treatments. From removing tracks entirely (the acoustic drums), to distortion (the baseline), to transient shaping (both to pull things forward and push them back in the mix), to some rather extreme EQ, and various other processing chains involving delays, reverbs, mod-delays, tube warmers, distortion, stereo imaging enhancement and so on. There’s no “right” chain; it was highly source specific.
Mix Bus: There has been discussion of compression. On my mix, first we have Mid/Sides processing to allow the sides (mainly the pads and reverbs) to hold their place independent of what’s happening in the center of the mix, then a tiny bit of glue from the excellent TDR Kotelnikov (it’s free, but beats out most other bus compressors). Only about 1db each, but this does sculpt the “feel" of the track. Also significant are a Slate SSL-4000 Mixbus emulation, Slate Revival, a Waves PuigTech EQ and a sides-EQ to center the lows.
Mastering: A tiny bit of EQ, a little saturation (Waves Saphira), and a limiter (which is just there to tame any errant overs). I have this session set up with reference tracks so I can A/B/C switch, and use that to lock in the appropriate tonality, brightness and stereo image. Then I'll see how it sounds as a 320kbps MP3 and 128k MP3 (Soundcloud), and may adjust the top end of the EQ a little, if it’s getting hammered during the transcoding.
This one was a fun track, in the sense that there is a decent song, and the right mix elements, lurking here. But it took some work to bring this out. (Hence, three attempts, before I arrived at a workable mix).
p.s. Two things I didn’t do on this track, but from which it would benefit: (a) tightening the timing (as an "80s throwback" mix it was more, ahem, authentic that way!); and, (b) the synths could have been augmented.
p.p.s. There was some discussion of expanders and transient shapers. The main difference is the detector. An expander is looking for a certain level (the threshold), a transient shaper is looking at the change in level (the delta), so they trigger differently. Then we wander into the hybrid dynamic-EQ/compressor/expanders, with waves C4/6 and Fabfilter Pro-MB as two examples. I tend to go there now, as I can treat specific ranges of frequencies rather than clobber the entire source. (There's at least 10 C4 instances in this mix.)
(14-09-2016, 01:41 PM)jeffd42 Wrote: This has opened into a discussion of how to rescue a difficult track.
A number of suggestions on the thread really helped, and I’ll also share a few of the things I found along the way that may prove helpful (or not!)...
Arrangement: I had to lean heavily on the mute button in order to create contrast. This helps create long-term dynamics, but more important was starting from a sensible arrangement, with transitions from: simple to complex; narrow to wider stereo image; and, different elements moving in/out of focus. (The guitar solo, after the breakdown, uses all of these techniques.)
Individual Tracks: There are several challenges present in the recordings. Consequently, quite a range of treatments. From removing tracks entirely (the acoustic drums), to distortion (the baseline), to transient shaping (both to pull things forward and push them back in the mix), to some rather extreme EQ, and various other processing chains involving delays, reverbs, mod-delays, tube warmers, distortion, stereo imaging enhancement and so on. There’s no “right” chain; it was highly source specific.
Mix Bus: There has been discussion of compression. On my mix, first we have Mid/Sides processing to allow the sides (mainly the pads and reverbs) to hold their place independent of what’s happening in the center of the mix, then a tiny bit of glue from the excellent TDR Kotelnikov (it’s free, but beats out most other bus compressors). Only about 1db each, but this does sculpt the “feel" of the track. Also significant are a Slate SSL-4000 emulation, Slate Revival, a PugTech EQ and a sides-EQ to center the lows.
Mastering: A tiny bit of EQ, a little saturation (Waves Saphira), and a limiter (which is just there to tame any errant overs). I have this session set up with reference tracks so I can A/B/C switch, and use that to lock in the appropriate tonality, brightness and stereo image. Then I'll see how it sounds as a 320kbps MP3 and 128k MP3 (Soundcloud), and may adjust the top end of the EQ a little, if it’s getting hammered during the transcoding.
This one was a fun track, in the sense that there is a decent song, and the right mix elements, lurking here. But it took some work to bring this out. (Hence, three attempts, before I arrived at a workable mix).
p.s. Two things I didn’t do on this track, but from which it would benefit: (a) tightening the timing (as an "80s throwback" mix it was more, ahem, authentic that way!); and, (b) the synths could have been augmented.
p.p.s. There was some discussion of expanders and transient shapers. The main difference is the detector. An expander is looking for a certain level (the threshold), a transient shaper is looking at the change in level (the delta), so they trigger differently. Then we wander into the hybrid dynamic-EQ/compressor/expanders, with waves C4/6 and Fabfilter Pro-MB as two examples. I tend to go there now, as I can treat specific ranges of frequencies rather than clobber the entire source. (There's at least 10 C4 instances in this mix.)
I had a chance to sit down and listen to your mix last night, I'm making my points off of the version uploaded to soundcloud so my comments maybe irrelevant depending on what version is currently available on soundcloud, take my points with the whole salt mine .
Overall you've got a balanced and full sounding mix going on, the Cult vibe you mentioned going for is really working in this track's favor.
I'm not going to make any comments about dynamics or dynamics processing because Dave really has commented in so much detail that to say anything more would be pointless (side note, I hear ya on the TDR Kotelnikov, it's pretty much my only master comp now aside from Waves SSL Buss Comp for a more coloured sound!)
When I was listening I did notice that their was some muddiness in the low mids around 200-400 Hz, a narrow parametric eq or a pul tec style eq would help with that problem area. Otherwise, the overall sound spectrum of the mix sounds great, especially coinciding the source material of the multitracks.
I really can't comment any further other than to say that the mix does sound great, I made a mix and just finished """""mastering""""" it and it really is a mix that you can't mix to be clean or conventionally dynamic (this is 80's synth pop afterall ;P).
Cheers,
Dcp
P.S thanks for clearing up the expander vs transient shapper thing.
Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer
Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
(14-09-2016, 03:41 PM)dcp10200 Wrote: I did notice that their was some muddiness in the low mids around 200-400 Hz... It really is a mix that you can't mix to be clean or conventionally dynamic (this is 80's synth pop after all)
Your comment was spot on. I put the mix up today on the Bose 2+1 system in the lounge (this being frowned upon at midnight, when I posted). For all its faults, the Bose highlights issues in the low-mids. I made two corrections: (1) to cut the 3rd-5th harmonics of the kick further; and, (2) dropped the baseline 2db, bringing it up more selectively in a few sections.
On the dynamics: 80s guitar synth pop was mixed for FM radio. The stations used (typically several) multi-band compander/phase-rotator/general-screwing-around-with-the-signal boxes. Mix and mastering engineers had to be creative as to what would make it through to the listener. Lots of techniques now found across all genres invented then -- the main one being how much complexity was added to the arrangements, due to higher track counts (vs. the more static mixes of the 70s).
I am told the loudness wars kicked of in earnest in the 1950s with 45s. It seems we've just managed to made it less musical with digital brick-wall limiters. (And then tried to make brickwall limiters sound less brickwallish. Go figure!)
Thanks again for your comments. I'll have a listen to your mix later today.
