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Dangerous Quicksand
#11
Some good work here, one of the better mixes of this song, may I say. I especially like the way you kept the bass clear of the sides and avoided the hazards of build up – the lead guitar on the left which mirrored the bass guitar was a real threat competently handled I thought. Mono reverb on the bass guitar? Essential for placement, good move.

Some minor details which addressed would encourage me to buy it....
The RH panned guitar doesn't feel in the soundstage, unlike the left one? Over speakers “it doesn't really matter” perhaps (ohh, pun!), but in the cans it doesn't convince. Only the right ear 'ole gets the sound here so it's unnatural and contradicts the more natural, binaural signals you gave us from the left panned guitar, so you left me with a contradiction and thus onwards to distraction – perhaps I've been around too long! I think had you done the binaural job on this right guitar, it would have made it even easier on the ears than your judicious EQ'ing has done, given that some of it's spectral content will be partially balanced by the left channel (subject to the Laws of nature). It's one of the biggest challenges to mix because the arrangement hasn't given us a stereo-balanced spectrum.

Sticking with this RH guitar....i'm hearing it pump with some degree of obviousness. For example, listening critically from 1:06 when it starts playing the melody, it's most noticeable. I think I can hear the left guitar getting hit as well, but it's not so discernible perhaps because of it's lower register. Is your kick getting in the way of the compressor on the master buss or is something more ominous taking place.....? Read the red bit.

The keys struggle to cut through...like this was mixed by someone with a bias towards guitars? Big Grin Speaking personally, I think the keys offer a decent contrast to the verse sections and help to provide the listener some fresh sonic interest in an otherwise guitar-centric mix. The difficulty, however, is giving them some space in an otherwise spectrally dense and louder delivery of the chorus. It demands tighter EQ'ing and perhaps exploiting the depth field more (but also note my point about compression below)? The clarity of the keys come from the treble and it's this range which is also frequented by the guitars. You need to compromise somehow.....without compromising? Smile

I'm going to pick up on your point about the quality of the materials, if I may. Most record in the 24bit domain these days, which has 144dB of dynamic range. Yet despite this, everyone it seems, has an insatiable need to smash the hell out of the tracking/pre-mix material and leave, as in this case, about 14dB in which to mix [NOTE: balance the levels before mixing and observe the ratio between the song's Program loudness and True Peak in order to deduce objectively the real state of play]. There's no room to swing a cat! This song arrived hot...too hot in my opinion, because it took away our ability to process the material as a mix and importantly, with a vision to include delivering decent audio quality. So, any further compression we might apply during the mix and any mastering is going to add to the distortion already abundantly evident, while piling on the loudness at the expense of dynamics – loudness war syndrome. So why add even more compression? Incidentally, limiting to 0dB is also a loudness war feature because of the need for maximum loudness while also encouraging consumer DAC's to distort (giving a subjective feeling of loudness). The compression factor, could also be contributing to the challenges of getting the keys out more in the mix, incidentally, which we've all struggled with. Furthermore, compression, amongst other things, can contribute to making audio more brittle and harsh, the very thing we are trying to negate in the vision. Taking this further....you EQ to reduce treble/warm the mix, but compress to [indirectly] add it. Now, despite my fussing and somewhat pedantic stance perhaps, you've done a really nice job in the circumstances.

Adding another point about the multi's quality which might also be playing it's part in the pumping i've noticed. I'm going to shout this out and make no apologies for doing so given it's importance and relevance....because it affects everyone who mixes this project:

THE MULTI CONTAINS PRINTED AUTOMATION and PRIOR-TO APPLIED PROCESSING. Ignore this at your peril. Why? For example, one moment the bass guitar isn't hitting your inserts hard, then suddenly during the chorus when the automation gets mega cranked skywards, it's going to get ugly and ladle into every single component in your insert chain AND everything else along the way, to the outputs of the master buss. To negate these major implications, it's imperative that the printed automation is neutralised BEFORE MIXING. Their idea of automation is based upon the sum of their knowledge, prowess at mixing, and the sum quality of their listening environment etc. The vocals have been done already, but were they done correctly/appropriately? How can we build on this project given the extent and nature of work already done? It's not a simple answer and becomes complicated because of the implications of their processing and how this impinges on our own ideas and values.

Now, if you REALLY want pedantic, here's an example:
When he sings “...what” during the intro line at around 0:20 “...it doesn't really matter, what I do or where I go..”, he puts a sudden surge of energy into the mic and it also fires up the room somewhat too, adding to the weight. I feel it, I hear it and it's a quality problem in the tracking. Trying to fix this isn't so easy... If you should be tempted to try fixing it, I wish you much fun (it does offer good practice at problem solving). there's also a touch of distortion I'd tweak on this intro section caused by build up of sibilance from both vocals occurring together. See what I mean about pedantic? lol

Thanks for the opportunity to do some critical listening, Dave.

Laters,,,
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#12
Thanks Dave for the in depth critique and analysis. An Enjoyable read and very encouraging words. I will try answer this the best I can

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Some good work here, one of the better mixes of this song, may I say. I especially like the way you kept the bass clear of the sides and avoided the hazards of build up – the lead guitar on the left which mirrored the bass guitar was a real threat competently handled I thought. Mono reverb on the bass guitar? Essential for placement, good move.

I'm starting to find it useful sometimes to place a mono reverb on the bass track. As you say, it can be helpful in placing the bass as an instrument in the performance as apposed to just an Omnidirectional sound that's just present.

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Some minor details which addressed would encourage me to buy it....
The RH panned guitar doesn't feel in the soundstage, unlike the left one? Over speakers “it doesn't really matter” perhaps (ohh, pun!), but in the cans it doesn't convince. Only the right ear 'ole gets the sound here so it's unnatural and contradicts the more natural, binaural signals you gave us from the left panned guitar, so you left me with a contradiction and thus onwards to distraction – perhaps I've been around too long! I think had you done the binaural job on this right guitar, it would have made it even easier on the ears than your judicious EQ'ing has done, given that some of it's spectral content will be partially balanced by the left channel (subject to the Laws of nature). It's one of the biggest challenges to mix because the arrangement hasn't given us a stereo-balanced spectrum.

I guess this is lack of experience on my part in mixing and perhaps more importantly listening skills than a oversight. I remember dealing with the dilemma at the time but wasn't really too sure with how to deal with it. Perhaps some delayed reverb on the opposite side could have helped.

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Sticking with this RH guitar....i'm hearing it pump with some degree of obviousness. For example, listening critically from 1:06 when it starts playing the melody, it's most noticeable. I think I can hear the left guitar getting hit as well, but it's not so discernible perhaps because of it's lower register. Is your kick getting in the way of the compressor on the master buss or is something more ominous taking place.....? Read the red bit.

Now this was an oversight and I can now hear the issue. I will have to dig in and try and find the culprit. I'm pretty sure it's not on the master because the compression is super light here. There are a couple of things I'm thinking. #1 I have a ducking comp on the guitar bus to sightly duck the guitars under the vocals 3dB max or #2, a parallel guitar bus compressor that's causing the pumping effect. In both cases It could even be the release times that I have used. (An area I tend to struggle with) Too short and it tends to "chug" too long and it can "swell". I will need to explore this one further.

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: The keys struggle to cut through...like this was mixed by someone with a bias towards guitars? Big Grin Speaking personally, I think the keys offer a decent contrast to the verse sections and help to provide the listener some fresh sonic interest in an otherwise guitar-centric mix. The difficulty, however, is giving them some space in an otherwise spectrally dense and louder delivery of the chorus. It demands tighter EQ'ing and perhaps exploiting the depth field more (but also note my point about compression below)? The clarity of the keys come from the treble and it's this range which is also frequented by the guitars. You need to compromise somehow.....without compromising? Smile

Definitely a bias towards guitars, combined with a general issue I have with placing keys in a mix and the lack of confidence I have doing so... This is something I am trying to get better at. A work in progress.

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I'm going to pick up on your point about the quality of the materials, if I may. Most record in the 24bit domain these days, which has 144dB of dynamic range. Yet despite this, everyone it seems, has an insatiable need to smash the hell out of the tracking/pre-mix material and leave, as in this case, about 14dB in which to mix [NOTE: balance the levels before mixing and observe the ratio between the song's Program loudness and True Peak in order to deduce objectively the real state of play]. There's no room to swing a cat! This song arrived hot...too hot in my opinion, because it took away our ability to process the material as a mix and importantly, with a vision to include delivering decent audio quality. So, any further compression we might apply during the mix and any mastering is going to add to the distortion already abundantly evident, while piling on the loudness at the expense of dynamics – loudness war syndrome. So why add even more compression? Incidentally, limiting to 0dB is also a loudness war feature because of the need for maximum loudness while also encouraging consumer DAC's to distort (giving a subjective feeling of loudness). The compression factor, could also be contributing to the challenges of getting the keys out more in the mix, incidentally, which we've all struggled with. Furthermore, compression, amongst other things, can contribute to making audio more brittle and harsh, the very thing we are trying to negate in the vision. Taking this further....you EQ to reduce treble/warm the mix, but compress to [indirectly] add it. Now, despite my fussing and somewhat pedantic stance perhaps, you've done a really nice job in the circumstances.

Adding another point about the multi's quality which might also be playing it's part in the pumping i've noticed. I'm going to shout this out and make no apologies for doing so given it's importance and relevance....because it affects everyone who mixes this project:

THE MULTI CONTAINS PRINTED AUTOMATION and PRIOR-TO APPLIED PROCESSING. Ignore this at your peril. Why? For example, one moment the bass guitar isn't hitting your inserts hard, then suddenly during the chorus when the automation gets mega cranked skywards, it's going to get ugly and ladle into every single component in your insert chain AND everything else along the way, to the outputs of the master buss. To negate these major implications, it's imperative that the printed automation is neutralised BEFORE MIXING. Their idea of automation is based upon the sum of their knowledge, prowess at mixing, and the sum quality of their listening environment etc. The vocals have been done already, but were they done correctly/appropriately? How can we build on this project given the extent and nature of work already done? It's not a simple answer and becomes complicated because of the implications of their processing and how this impinges on our own ideas and values.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance here. I guess as I get more into the audio engineering side of things it will be of my best interest to be more engaged with the techincal aspects of sound. I work in electrical/electronic engineering by day, so I'm knowledgeable enough on the subject, just ignorantTongue. The pre-editing and processing on these track has possibly helped me by giving me less to do and less to stuff up and get wrong. It's not the normal way I like to work, without all the challenges and artistic control, but does to an extent explain the outcome.

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Now, if you REALLY want pedantic, here's an example:
When he sings “...what” during the intro line at around 0:20 “...it doesn't really matter, what I do or where I go..”, he puts a sudden surge of energy into the mic and it also fires up the room somewhat too, adding to the weight. I feel it, I hear it and it's a quality problem in the tracking. Trying to fix this isn't so easy... If you should be tempted to try fixing it, I wish you much fun (it does offer good practice at problem solving). there's also a touch of distortion I'd tweak on this intro section caused by build up of sibilance from both vocals occurring together. See what I mean about pedantic? lol

Quite interesting, critically listening to the track again a lot of your points come to light. Things that would pass right through the untrained ear. Mine included, although I am getting betterSmile

(18-08-2016, 01:16 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Thanks for the opportunity to do some critical listening, Dave.

Laters,,,

Thanks again Dave for the time you've put into this and for opening up my ears. Plenty of things for me to think about and be more observant about moving forward.
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#13
Hey Dave

I found it!
Wow!
Really smooth mix, so easy to listen to. You definitely achieved the modern mix you were going for. So much different from the direction I went, and that's the cool thing about mixing, everyone hears something different.

Guitar tone is really nice. Drums and bass are spot on.

Great Mix!!

Cheers
KSmile
Gear:-Zoom R24 interface, controller - Cubase/Reaper - Assorted Waves, Airwindows suite, AKG K240 Cans, Event TR5 reference monitors.
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#14
(09-07-2018, 04:06 PM)KMuzic Wrote: Hey Dave

I found it!
Wow!
Really smooth mix, so easy to listen to. You definitely achieved the modern mix you were going for. So much different from the direction I went, and that's the cool thing about mixing, everyone hears something different.

Guitar tone is really nice. Drums and bass are spot on.

Great Mix!!

Cheers
KSmile

Yes, it is pretty cool. I love hearing the different mixes that are presented here. Some of the creative ideas put forward are just inspiring.
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#15
Wow, that left guitar/bass combo totally put me in airguitar mode! Everything is delightful, solid-big-warm-yet still natural sounding.
It's true that the right guitar (that first updown chord is a little earpiercing) is slightly weird sounding space wise, I struggled with that part, too.

I'd ask what did you do with the intro because it sounds so clear and just right, thou I guess you didn't do anything fancy about it. It's hard to refrain from ultraprocessing everything!

Superb job, cheers!
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#16
(25-02-2019, 04:57 PM)Deliza Wrote: Wow, that left guitar/bass combo totally put me in airguitar mode! Everything is delightful, solid-big-warm-yet still natural sounding.
It's true that the right guitar (that first updown chord is a little earpiercing) is slightly weird sounding space wise, I struggled with that part, too.

I'd ask what did you do with the intro because it sounds so clear and just right, thou I guess you didn't do anything fancy about it. It's hard to refrain from ultraprocessing everything!

Superb job, cheers!


Hey Deliza, thanks for checking this one out. I just hopped back into the project and I can't see that I did anything with the intro other than just panning it left and right. It may be from the lack of processing as you say. The way I look at it, processing cannot add anything to the original sound. It certainly can help with enhancing it and cleaning it up, but also degrade it and taketh away.
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