MerryGold: Motherload - Mixed at Walt's Audio Engineering

[WaltsAudio]

Thanks again Walt! It was very kind of you to answer my question and share your knowledge. This is golden for me. I cannot wait to try this out

Glad I could help. I am grateful for the audio engineers that have taught me so much online and in person and it is good to be able to pass some of that on to others...

[WaltsAudio]

you got a very good sound, Walt! And I've also learned a few things by reading the song's thread. Some things pointed out here are a regular part of my mixing procedure, like mixing in mono until instruments pop out properly good work!

Glad I could help - it's good to see people working to improve their mixing skills. Thanks for the kind review...

[LightYearRecords11]

I like the warmer more old school vibe of this mix. It does seem to lack some clarity and is very dense, but it works with the feel. I would have tamed the bass a bit more and given the vocal more room, but otherwise I dig the overall feel and how the mids of the vocals seem to so emotional.

[WaltsAudio]

I like the warmer more old school vibe of this mix. It does seem to lack some clarity and is very dense, but it works with the feel. I would have tamed the bass a bit more and given the vocal more room, but otherwise I dig the overall feel and how the mids of the vocals seem to so emotional.

Thanks for the comments LightYearRecords11,
I didn't want to get the vocals overly bright - keeping them smooth and soothing - and a bit of gentle de-essing. Yes, you can tell I love that upright.
In playing this back on several sources, the only one I found the upright to take a bit extra of the stage was on a headset that responds significantly to the very low end of the spectrum. On my studio monitors (no sub) and other systems, it just seemed to make the low end nice and warm. I like hearing an upright as a featured instrument occasionally - I think that is taboo to some. It had a few slightly overbearing notes because a mic was probably too close to the "F" hole - where resonances tend to really show up. I didn't want to kill its warm dynamics with excessive compression, so I let a bit of that through. If I were recording this myself, I'd want to pay attention to the mic placement on the upright so that this wouldn't have to be tamed in the mix - better to do that in the tracking session...
Thanks for noticing the emotion - that's a very important thing, not only in the vocals, but any featured instruments.
Walt

[LightYearRecords11]

I like the warmer more old school vibe of this mix. It does seem to lack some clarity and is very dense, but it works with the feel. I would have tamed the bass a bit more and given the vocal more room, but otherwise I dig the overall feel and how the mids of the vocals seem to so emotional.

Thanks for the comments LightYearRecords11,
I didn't want to get the vocals overly bright - keeping them smooth and soothing - and a bit of gentle de-essing. Yes, you can tell I love that upright.
In playing this back on several sources, the only one I found the upright to take a bit extra of the stage was on a headset that responds significantly to the very low end of the spectrum. On my studio monitors (no sub) and other systems, it just seemed to make the low end nice and warm. I like hearing an upright as a featured instrument occasionally - I think that is taboo to some. It had a few slightly overbearing notes because a mic was probably too close to the "F" hole - where resonances tend to really show up. I didn't want to kill its warm dynamics with excessive compression, so I let a bit of that through. If I were recording this myself, I'd want to pay attention to the mic placement on the upright so that this wouldn't have to be tamed in the mix - better to do that in the tracking session...
Thanks for noticing the emotion - that's a very important thing, not only in the vocals, but any featured instruments.
Walt

I if you improved your monitoring environment and worked on your spatial image it could be a lot better. I listened to it on a variety of monitors at the private studio I am contracted at with fresh ears, and there was a general consensus of total lack of depth and too much "warmth" from the techs, other engineers, and owners. I wonder if you were ear fatigued when mixing it. It almost feels like you tried LCR panning and then buried the room content in mono. I wouldn't call it a modern or professional mix, but with a little work and perhaps using a similar song as reference you could greatly improve.

[LightYearRecords11]

You may also want to check out the usage policy for the stems since you posted your mix on soundcloud. However if you have received permission from the band and their label to do so, don't worry about it.

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk-UsageFAQs.htm

[WaltsAudio]

[quote='LightYearRecords11' pid='39452' dateline='1448301700']

I if you improved your monitoring environment and worked on your spatial image it could be a lot better. I listened to it on a variety of monitors at the private studio I am contracted at with fresh ears, and there was a general consensus of total lack of depth and too much "warmth" from the techs, other engineers, and owners. I wonder if you were ear fatigued when mixing it. It almost feels like you tried LCR panning and then buried the room content in mono. I wouldn't call it a modern or professional mix, but with a little work and perhaps using a similar song as reference you could greatly improve.

Sorry LightYearRecords11,
I didn't mean to offend - it sounds like I may have from the tone of these comments. Others had been thankful when I had listened carefully to their mixes so I simply wanted to offer details on whatever I found - not meant to offend...

[The_Metallurgist]

I chose to give it a new sound stage.

hi Walt'

i think my comment follows on primarily from what @lightyearrecords11 said previously. there's some mixing issues prevalent at a basic level, for example the accordion does some strange things; it appears at one point to jump to the front of the mix before suddenly launching back from whence it came, in a somewhat odd stereo perspective? but i can jump around like that when i've a few coffees!

the real difficulty here for me is that there isn't a sound stage, and it's this which i find distracting from a listener's perspective. the LCR panning which you've gone for, will work in your favour regarding separation, but it doesn't present a sound stage per se, even if the instruments are given a dose of ambiance. over headphones, for example, i have a musician sitting on each of my shoulders, however the right instrument isn't heard in my left ear, and vice versa, which is unnatural and hence becomes a distraction. anything that distracts should be avoided, unless there's some creative reason for doing so (but there isn't one in this genre). we use both ears to judge location...even in headphones, despite their 180 degree "perspective". i'm wondering if you use headphones to see how things translate from the 60 degree speaker presentation?

depth is one of THE most crucial aspects necessary for the presentation of an "effective" sound stage, along with appropriate panning; this genre calls for effectiveness and appropriateness or it won't work to those with informed ears. a song that doesn't connect and contains distractions, risks losing an audience.

furthermore, on the one hand you've achieved at first glance some nice separation and relative clarity, but on the other, you've not had the problems inherent when applying ambiance/reverb in order to give the illusion all musicians are sharing the same space. for example, you've not had to fight the masking issues prevalent when working the depth perspective. i'd like to hear this mix with the depth applied, and a non-LCR approach; i think with your obvious EQ crafting skills, the outcome would be rewarding. of course, depth isn't only about feeding the reverb emu's, but it's also attained though careful use of equalisation (i.e. frequency response changes with distance/depth) and an applicable level of amplitude. if we get any of these 3 things wrong, the mix won't work. phew, so much to think about, eh?

i think you were right to abandon the decca tree. i have no idea why anyone would want such an arrangement in a studio anyway. perhaps the apprentices were exploring some miking arrangements...but there's far too much reflection coming locally from the room boundary for this technique to be of any value whatsoever, i'd suggest.

before i sign off, i'd like to complement you on the effort you've gone to in the forum in helping others with this song. i wish more were so willing to share like this! bravo!!

cheers,
Dave

[WaltsAudio]

I chose to give it a new sound stage.

hi Walt'

i think my comment ...

cheers,
Dave

Hi Dave,
First, I want to thank you for detailed comments that have made me think though this mix in some new directions.
I’ll try to address some of your comments in the order they are in your post (or at least close to it):

In listening back to the accordion with respect to the stage, I see your point that it moves front-to-back quite a bit – further than I had noticed during mixing. In my imagination I saw this image of an ethereal sounding accordion moving around and intentionally portrayed it that way, but apparently with too much contrast – maybe several shots of espresso.

If I understand what you’re noting about listening to the mix in headphones, you’re correct about how I monitored: For all imaging, I used the monitors rather than paying as much attention to how the depth translates to the cans. (The monitors are, of course, in the standard equilateral triangle in a room with the reflections and resonances dampened out per the monitoring position.) I used the headsets mainly for checking the balance of the extreme low end (since I don’t mix with a sub on the monitors) and paid too little attention to the headphone image – it shows.

On the placement of instruments vs. the genre, I have what I assume is an unusual taste that I’d love to hear your comments on:
When I’ve heard bluegrass/newgrass songs with a couple of hard-panned, up-front strings (banjos, mandolins, acoustic guitars – whatever was featured) that were far in front of the stage, I’ve loved that sound and really wished for more of this genre to be mixed that way since it interested me so much more when played on most common consumer sources (not saying that I didn’t take this one a bit far)…
I know the genre is typically put into a more confining stage – in fact, in some live traditional bluegrass competitions I’ve heard from contestant groups that they are required to mix themselves around one mic via proximity – which is an art of its own.

I wanted to bring a more lively movement and contrast to the stage (though overdone a bit on this mix) and I’ve really enjoyed listening to the result of this – and it appears from this forum that many less “informed” ears seem to also enjoy this pattern or “vibe”. Maybe I’m a bit of a rebel in that respect, but when I’ve heard a few others mix bluegrass very wide and lively, I’ve always hoped to find more of that music because it made me feel like I was on the stage with the musicians with an instrument or two on either side of me (right in my living room). Is there some reason that is such an unacceptable philosophy (if not taken quite as far as I did on this mix)? I’ve always enjoyed being unique and somewhat unrestrained by the norm, but it appears some see this as “unprofessional”.

You’ve given me the desire to work more on this one – trying to keep much of what I was after, but a bit less exaggerated and maybe a bit more glue. Hopefully I’ll have time to do that in the not too distant future. Even if I can’t, you’ve given me some refining points for future mixes.

Thanks for your helpful input!
Walt