(25-08-2015, 08:21 AM)HbGuitar Wrote: My standard monitor output is calibrated to 60 dB SPL when generating -14dBFS pink noise...which yields 70 dB SPL when mixing to K20 (slow response, C weighting)
Do you see this as being the most effective point on the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curve where the ear's frequency response is most linear?
(25-08-2015, 06:49 AM)loweche6 Wrote: So, on my sub, i turned on the exciter, whatever jbl calls it, and dialed back to a point where it felt right to me, so hopefully that will help feed my bass addiction, while not loading my actual mix with unlistenable junk. I also brought up the low end on my mains to the +2 dB positions.
Dave, at the moment, I am going to forgo you suggestion to place them on a wall because, frankly, that would require me moving my desk to a completely different section of my basement (unfinished large main room which I am in the center of). Hopefully the adjustments to my sub and low end response of my lsr305's will help curtail future low end issues.
You've indirectly implemented the recommendation/idea. I didn't know you were using a sub, but assuming you are running the JBL310S, engaging the XLF (extended low frequency) gives a 10dB gain at 60Hz while also implementing a high pass filter at 120Hz. normally, the crossover would be at 80Hz, so the change in filter has also spread the increase in bass a little further up into the harmonics by an octave from 60Hz. And if you aren't using this sub...then i've just typed a load of cobblers! lol
anyway, woteva....massive improvement this end mate!
I personally wouldn't switch the monitor's trim to +2dB, but of course only you should reason the logic and find your own comfort zones in this regard. Making your monitor push bass will tend to lose you some audible clarity in the mid-range because you are asking the woofer to extend itself – think of it as driving an extra 40mph above 50mph, then having to try and stop in the exact same distance during an emergency. A woofer has the same problem in stopping with suitable abruptness and it's lethargy will result in audio issues to some extent. This is one of the reasons I didn't recommend “trim switching” your way out....but placing the box against a wall (or near to it). Be aware that asking your sub to push out the additional 10dB(?) to a weighty 10inch woofer(?) will have similar issues to the low end, so watch out for this e.g. a loss of tightness or an increase in flab from the kick, say, which could lead to a tendency to over-compress in the mix.
Note for future reference, that you can put your sub against a wall so long as the SPL balance with your monitors isn't compromised by distance, and gain 6dB. Something to bear in mind, eh?
But I bet the neighbours love you more now! And just think about the additional health benefits of all those low frequencies massaging your internal organs, oh, and the odd external ones too LOL..
I think this stuff confirms you ARE a bass junkie but perhaps not bad enough to necessitate therapy?
looking forward to checking out your future mixes to see how you are getting along.
(25-08-2015, 06:49 AM)loweche6 Wrote: ....... large main room which I am in the center of...
i need clarification, it's important. do you mean "center", as in your mixing position being half-way between the front and rear walls (and assuming you are firing your speakers down the longest length of the room)?
(25-08-2015, 06:49 AM)loweche6 Wrote: ....... large main room which I am in the center of...
i need clarification, it's important. do you mean "center", as in your mixing position being half-way between the front and rear walls (and assuming you are firing your speakers down the longest length of the room)?
The room is essentially a large square. It is the basement of the house, and i am near the center of the room, as the basement is filled with stuff collected from years of doing theater. And by large square, I would say approximately a 35' X35' concrete and cinder block basement with no acoustical treatment. . . i mean, I don't see any issues there. . . at all. . . sarcasm. . .
26-08-2015, 04:33 AM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2015, 04:56 AM by HbGuitar.)
(25-08-2015, 05:11 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote:
(25-08-2015, 08:21 AM)HbGuitar Wrote: My standard monitor output is calibrated to 60 dB SPL when generating -14dBFS pink noise...which yields 70 dB SPL when mixing to K20 (slow response, C weighting)
Do you see this as being the most effective point on the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curve where the ear's frequency response is most linear?
Good question......I suppose its a compromise point. I guess the holy grail for Fletcher-Munson is ~85 dB SPL. But 70 dB SPL is a sound level that I like to monitor on, especially for long periods. And of course, I can push to ~80-85 dB SPL on occasion for short bursts.
As you know, the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness contours developed in 1933 have been largely superseded by ISO226 which was initially based upon the work of Robinson and Dadson (1956) but later updated in 2003.
Interestingly, ISO 226 and FM show close correlation across the entire frequency range (20-20,000hz) below 60 dB SPL but responses above 60 dB SPL deviate considerably, with ISO226 showing much less linearity than FM in the 100 -1,000hz range......so I guess this muddies the water a little on how linear the ear's frequency response becomes with increasing SPL
Be fierce in your encouragement, kind in your criticism and try and remember that the art of a good critique is not to make someone else's mix sound like yours...but to help the mixer realize their own vision.
(26-08-2015, 02:16 AM)loweche6 Wrote: The room is essentially a large square. It is the basement of the house, and i am near the center of the room, as the basement is filled with stuff collected from years of doing theater. And by large square, I would say approximately a 35' X35' concrete and cinder block basement with no acoustical treatment. . . i mean, I don't see any issues there. . . at all. . . sarcasm. . .
thanks for the info dude. i'll keep my reply short based on this. turning up the sub won't help. your room has modes, frequencies at which it will resonate, based on it's dimensions. a square room is bad and being in the middle of it is not good. as you already know, lack of acoustic treatment has it's issues too so the odds are firmly stacked up against you. the sub will make this situation worse, because it will excite the modes. i'd try and aim for a mix position 38 percent from [the front] wall if you can, but this requires experimentation; it's a step forward. losing the subwoofer and learning how to mix on bass-shy monitors might also be another.....but this depends on how well you can learn to interpret the bass. it can be done (FFT can then help).
however, FFT, spectral jollies and referencing won't help in your CURRENT situation, and neither can forum feedback. because of the nature of the beast, these resonances run all the way up through the frequency range, so you don't merely have a bass problem. headphones have their issues, but in the circumstances with such a bad room, you're 650's will be more reliable.....but nevertheless will hold you back because of the limitations of mixing with headphones.
if you haven't tried mixing without the sub, give it a shot.
(26-08-2015, 02:16 AM)loweche6 Wrote: The room is essentially a large square. It is the basement of the house, and i am near the center of the room, as the basement is filled with stuff collected from years of doing theater. And by large square, I would say approximately a 35' X35' concrete and cinder block basement with no acoustical treatment. . . i mean, I don't see any issues there. . . at all. . . sarcasm. . .
thanks for the info dude. i'll keep my reply short based on this. turning up the sub won't help. your room has modes, frequencies at which it will resonate, based on it's dimensions. a square room is bad and being in the middle of it is not good. as you already know, lack of acoustic treatment has it's issues too so the odds are firmly stacked up against you. the sub will make this situation worse, because it will excite the modes. i'd try and aim for a mix position 38 percent from [the front] wall if you can, but this requires experimentation; it's a step forward. losing the subwoofer and learning how to mix on bass-shy monitors might also be another.....but this depends on how well you can learn to interpret the bass. it can be done (FFT can then help).
however, FFT, spectral jollies and referencing won't help in your CURRENT situation, and neither can forum feedback. because of the nature of the beast, these resonances run all the way up through the frequency range, so you don't merely have a bass problem. headphones have their issues, but in the circumstances with such a bad room, you're 650's will be more reliable.....but nevertheless will hold you back because of the limitations of mixing with headphones.
if you haven't tried mixing without the sub, give it a shot.
So, wasn't completely honest, I would say I'm actually closer to 25% in to theroom, however there is so much big random heavy things in the basement that I shouldn't call it square anymore. Plus odd objects like stairs in the center, and old video store shelves with vhs tapes on them. . . I had to move out of my old room while I dealt with some water issues (which i hope are taken care of now).
When I moved to this spot, it was with the knowledge that it was nowhere near an ideal location, with the room dimension ratios and such, but truth be told I've been in this position for quite a while, and have noticed I had some issues with my low end, but I don't think other mixes felt like they needed so much low end to my ear. I'm going to re-position my mix station and see how it turns out. Thanks again Dave, I'm eventually going to use the master handbook of Acoustics to help finish at least my mixing room here in the basement.
”Anyway, to summarize, Bob says that its 70% listener/speaker placement, 25% acoustic treatments and 5% electronic equalization.
He also says that corner traps don't always work well.
He also says that the 38% rule is quite misleading.
And that porous insulation cannot really handle low bass problems.
And SBIR/modal predictions work only in rectangular rooms with very heavy and properly sealed boundaries.
But mostly, that there are no rules...
”
======
I’m sure that Ethan Winer will disagree with statemen that it’s ”70% listener/speaker placement”
But anyway, if you happen to have a small diagram omni mic, download the REW-program and measure your room. (Or buy the mic with 55 €. http://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_ecm_8...3ef60e1846) It’s fun and frustrating process. Well actually, you’re never measuring your room, you’re measuring just one spot at a time. CHange speaker positions and measure again in your listening position. And notice that sometimes changing 10 cm speaker positions can make a big difference.
03-09-2015, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2015, 12:35 PM by The_Metallurgist.)
(28-08-2015, 11:54 PM)loweche6 Wrote: I'm going to re-position my mix station and see how it turns out. Thanks again Dave, I'm eventually going to use the master handbook of Acoustics to help finish at least my mixing room here in the basement.
Just some babble during my coffee break...
I'm afraid I consider anything with the word Pensado in a sentence to be little more than a publicity stunt.....or simply entertainment to draw in the punters. The video Olli kindly detailed, was entertaining (not wishing to appear sarcastic, I hasten to add!). Sadly it lacked any real depth and merely dealt with major generalisations, the sort of stuff which helps to perpetuate myths and fuel misunderstandings perhaps? But what can be done usefully in an hour with a subject so technical?
The 38 Percent Rule was popularised by Wes Lachot, an acoustician and studio designer. He shows that the “theoretically” best listening position is 38 percent into the length of a room when measured from either the back or front wall. This offers the best compromise of peaks and nulls for any given room size. You will note that I followed it with the word “EXPERIMENT”, which I will herewith shout out because the ideal location will depend on many factors like speaker design, furnishings, windows, wall properties, carpets, curtains, ceiling height, blah blah....plus other factors that affect low-frequency response. I will make the observation here, because it's relevant, that many acousticians argue amongst themselves, and often out in public about who is right and who is wrong. I'm rarely in any mood to take sides and I deplore those who do, quite frankly. If we don't read the technical journals and well known and greatly respected bibles and actually inform ourselves about the vagaries of room acoustics and the challenges and disparities held even within the theory, then we are acting unprofessionally as mixing/audio engineers i say.
As for treating corners? Bass generally collects in corners. Treating the corners is therefore part of the way to addressing acoustic issues, but i appreciate that variability is a process fact and nothing ever follows a consistent performance - that's life. I would add however, and this bit many books and entertainment videos seem to pass by, is that any sound directed at an untreated corner will be reflected back from whence it commenced, and depending on the corner's fabrication, the amplitude can arrive almost as strong as when it left (depending on frequency and distance). The implications should be pretty obvious...
There is NO substitute, in my experience, for reading several darn good technical books on the matter, which can even occasionally present conflicting or even inaccurate information.....aahhhh, the Joys of Theory eh? Then we will know just as much as the so-say experts who, if I may state the obvious, also get their know-how from books and technical papers as well as performing their own trials (ref Ethan Winer). The benefit which accompanies an expert, of course, is experience out in the field, and everyone will experience something different. While some books will endeavour to print experiences between their covers, the nature of acoustics means that no two-situations will ever be repeated and every room must be approached on a case-by-case basis, a point which screws up many of us, especially when money is involved in formulating solutions! Lol.
The Master Handbook of Acoustics is a good read Draper (the 6th edition especially so because of it's addition of the section specifically focused on small room acoustics). However, I would strongly recommend Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms by Floyd Toole as an excellent complement to it (2008...i don't think it's been revised yet???). And if you REALLY want to get down and dirty....the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) have some splendid technical papers which go back to the 1940's and make fascinating study regarding bass absorbers and diffusers. I've observed that many designs of acoustic treatment available commercially today share similarities with the BBC's original findings. I appreciate you won't want to take this course of action in your current space, and understandably so, but nevertheless their experiments make for fascinating reading (subjective! lol). I'd also throw in Ethan Winer's book The Audio Expert, if you have time or get the chance, at least as a future reference. While it's a less academic approach to acoustics (which makes it more reader-friendly), he does make some points which hold validity which are based on the Theory, but he doesn't weigh the reader down with maths. What I especially like about Ethan is his approachability.....he is always willing to help, AND he appreciates good audio quality as a fellow audiophile.
Draper, one of the physical issues that won't help in your current situation, is the storage chaos which surrounds you, which you've alighted to. This will cause all sorts of reflections and absorptions which are no doubt arranged as unsymmetrical and random as they could possibly be. A crucial element to addressing room problems is the need for symmetry, which you are firmly aware of. I dare say though, that you aren't plagued by flutter echoes, eh? Lol Best get back to your old room ASAP
There is one factor which never changes (ummmm, apart from temperature and humidity which influences it!), is the speed of sound in air, at 1ft/ms. Any sound arriving after the direct sound upto about 30ms will cause comb filtering, and stuff arriving later than this will appear as a delay. Bass, because of it's energy, will take ages to decay, despite banging around all the walls several times! So, to “infer” that 70 percent of a room's acoustic problems can be overcome simply by speaker placement suggests partial irresponsibility, at least to me. But clearly, speaker placement has a major role in helping to address issues....which is where the 38 Percent Rule comes in
Well, coffee's over and babbling stops...must get on.
D
