19-11-2014, 12:11 PM
thanks for the details, i understand what i was hearing now....makes sense. i wasn't believing your illusion of space and felt there was a white veil over not only this mix, but past mixes (and by inference, will have issues on subsequent ones). on closing my eyes, i was unable to imagine the panorama, suggesting the psycho-acoustic signals in your audio weren't delivering the messages to enable me to do so. since running an eye over the details herein, i can understand why. i think there's opportunity to make your work more believable and convincing. a mix that has contradictory psycho-acoustic signals within it, will risk alienating an audience....we understand space instinctively through our senses, but the challenge we have as mixers, is applying the concepts necessary to deliver the illusion convincingly. it's not a gift. and it's far from an easy skill to acquire.
m8, reverb/ambiance is a big subject. i'm not even going to be able to scratch the surface here. i think there are some points that will need a change of reference and a fresh perspective regarding your strategy. my recommendation to you would be to research your butt off.
the core concept of applying reverb and making an ambiance, is about understanding acoustics. without being derogatory, musicians, indeed most people generally don't have a clue about acoustics, unless they have a desire to read up and research the subject at their leisure. it's perhaps hardly surprising that many, if not most mixes in the forum, don't deliver in this regard. it's nothing to be ashamed of.....we all come into the world naked. i do, however, feel it's a subject which is all too often neglected in feedback. it's all too easy to spot a problem mix and let it pass than to try and do the Acoustics 101 thing. and it's also easy to miss the issues for those who haven't done the Acoustics 101 thing. you contribute so much to the thread, you should get something out of it besides 3 or 4 sentences of useless rubbish!
i've not read this link through....but there are also some references at the bottom of the page also, which in their own right will no doubt bring other references to your attention. this article was in 2008, so i dare say there will be newer ones also, but that's an assumption. this should please Mike, it's his article
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/ar...everb1.htm
i'm going to have to leave you to it because it's easier for you to access structured material than have me deliver a feeble attempt, and most likely in a very broken and fragmented, and hence utterly confusing post. other peeps can also spin off the reference material too, so the thread and this post will have a benefit to the community at large.
however, if you have a specific point you'd like me to address, if i can address it competently then i will gladly oblige. i'm not good at following threads so if you ask herein and i don't reply, it's because i'm not aware of it.....please feel free to PM me and flag it up!!!!
i think you will find, that when you get this nailed, your placement will be much easier, limiting your need to consider Haas. i think that's good news, because Haas doesn't do mono at all well, and it also brings with it some oddities in the sound because of the comb filtering that's inevitable. yeah, we get comb filtering in reverb too....but it's different to Haas.
my immediate advice would be for you to avoid stereo reverbs when mixing. they add far to much spectral crud and can overwhelm a mix very quickly, especially if you run in excess of 800ms decay. i never do....except when it comes to Mastering, but that's a different subject.
you also hinted about how you set pre-delays. if i'm not mistaken, you base it on tempo? this makes alarm bells ring in my mind. ambiance has nothing to do with tempo. indeed, pre-delay is the signal that tells us how far away the noise source is from the back wall, to all intents and purposes. so, the closer the subject to the listener, the longer the pre-delay (you don't want a pre-delay on anything longer than 35ms for technical reasons). the further away it is, the less the pre-delay....and do take note: ZERO pre-delay is what i use on my master buss reverb....with a decay of no more than about 1.2 seconds but that's me. convolution reverbs are considered dangerous because of the extra frequency content they generate VERY quickly, so i'd advise you to be careful when and where you apply them. they can stifle a mix with consummate ease.
the only time i think about tempo in terms of delays.....is when engaging a tap delay.
the HP filter at 400-600Hz is over done. bass exists in a room. yes, it needs HP'ing, but not this high up. what is valid, however, is putting a cut in the ambiance around the Mud Zone, to minimise the risk of build up. i hit the 350-450Hz area, down 3dB, with a Q about 2. i can't actually remember exactly because i set it up many years ago and haven't looked at it since. all my go-to ambiance/reverbs are in a template and i never touch them. if i have a project with additional creative needs, i'll set that up ad-lib. technically, you shouldn't need to fiddle with your main ambiance verbs once set. i only change how much an instrument gets fed to an emu in the send...if i want more depth placement, then i'll feed more to the "depth" send. i don't fiddle with pre-delays, decays, EQ etc. it's set up, job done. yeah, rooms vary....but i can vary the illusion of depth for example, by feeding the send more of the instrument.
because i never use stereo reverbs in the mix, i can place the location of the reverb anywhere in the mix, from behind the instrument, the middle, or to the opposite channel somewhere. if the reverb drops out during mix-down to mono, that's sometimes a bonus for reasons of space needed in a mono delivery. similarly, by making the placement of the verb optional, i can also avoid spectral congestion within the stereo panorama.
LP? 10kHz? wow....that's bright. if you applied this, AND had a long decay time beyond 1 second say, you are giving a contradictory signal which is totally ambiguous. sound that has only a 3.4cms wave length (10kHz) isn't going to last long in air. big rooms have a lot of air, eh? so that spectral element won't live. if you make it live in a big space, it will be your undoing! this is why it's important to have bass in the reverb signal, because bass lives forever! cut this out totally, and you will go to jail, won't pass go, and won't collect 200 pounds
let's go!
m8, reverb/ambiance is a big subject. i'm not even going to be able to scratch the surface here. i think there are some points that will need a change of reference and a fresh perspective regarding your strategy. my recommendation to you would be to research your butt off.
the core concept of applying reverb and making an ambiance, is about understanding acoustics. without being derogatory, musicians, indeed most people generally don't have a clue about acoustics, unless they have a desire to read up and research the subject at their leisure. it's perhaps hardly surprising that many, if not most mixes in the forum, don't deliver in this regard. it's nothing to be ashamed of.....we all come into the world naked. i do, however, feel it's a subject which is all too often neglected in feedback. it's all too easy to spot a problem mix and let it pass than to try and do the Acoustics 101 thing. and it's also easy to miss the issues for those who haven't done the Acoustics 101 thing. you contribute so much to the thread, you should get something out of it besides 3 or 4 sentences of useless rubbish!
i've not read this link through....but there are also some references at the bottom of the page also, which in their own right will no doubt bring other references to your attention. this article was in 2008, so i dare say there will be newer ones also, but that's an assumption. this should please Mike, it's his article
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/ar...everb1.htm
i'm going to have to leave you to it because it's easier for you to access structured material than have me deliver a feeble attempt, and most likely in a very broken and fragmented, and hence utterly confusing post. other peeps can also spin off the reference material too, so the thread and this post will have a benefit to the community at large.
however, if you have a specific point you'd like me to address, if i can address it competently then i will gladly oblige. i'm not good at following threads so if you ask herein and i don't reply, it's because i'm not aware of it.....please feel free to PM me and flag it up!!!!
i think you will find, that when you get this nailed, your placement will be much easier, limiting your need to consider Haas. i think that's good news, because Haas doesn't do mono at all well, and it also brings with it some oddities in the sound because of the comb filtering that's inevitable. yeah, we get comb filtering in reverb too....but it's different to Haas.
my immediate advice would be for you to avoid stereo reverbs when mixing. they add far to much spectral crud and can overwhelm a mix very quickly, especially if you run in excess of 800ms decay. i never do....except when it comes to Mastering, but that's a different subject.
you also hinted about how you set pre-delays. if i'm not mistaken, you base it on tempo? this makes alarm bells ring in my mind. ambiance has nothing to do with tempo. indeed, pre-delay is the signal that tells us how far away the noise source is from the back wall, to all intents and purposes. so, the closer the subject to the listener, the longer the pre-delay (you don't want a pre-delay on anything longer than 35ms for technical reasons). the further away it is, the less the pre-delay....and do take note: ZERO pre-delay is what i use on my master buss reverb....with a decay of no more than about 1.2 seconds but that's me. convolution reverbs are considered dangerous because of the extra frequency content they generate VERY quickly, so i'd advise you to be careful when and where you apply them. they can stifle a mix with consummate ease.
the only time i think about tempo in terms of delays.....is when engaging a tap delay.
the HP filter at 400-600Hz is over done. bass exists in a room. yes, it needs HP'ing, but not this high up. what is valid, however, is putting a cut in the ambiance around the Mud Zone, to minimise the risk of build up. i hit the 350-450Hz area, down 3dB, with a Q about 2. i can't actually remember exactly because i set it up many years ago and haven't looked at it since. all my go-to ambiance/reverbs are in a template and i never touch them. if i have a project with additional creative needs, i'll set that up ad-lib. technically, you shouldn't need to fiddle with your main ambiance verbs once set. i only change how much an instrument gets fed to an emu in the send...if i want more depth placement, then i'll feed more to the "depth" send. i don't fiddle with pre-delays, decays, EQ etc. it's set up, job done. yeah, rooms vary....but i can vary the illusion of depth for example, by feeding the send more of the instrument.
because i never use stereo reverbs in the mix, i can place the location of the reverb anywhere in the mix, from behind the instrument, the middle, or to the opposite channel somewhere. if the reverb drops out during mix-down to mono, that's sometimes a bonus for reasons of space needed in a mono delivery. similarly, by making the placement of the verb optional, i can also avoid spectral congestion within the stereo panorama.
LP? 10kHz? wow....that's bright. if you applied this, AND had a long decay time beyond 1 second say, you are giving a contradictory signal which is totally ambiguous. sound that has only a 3.4cms wave length (10kHz) isn't going to last long in air. big rooms have a lot of air, eh? so that spectral element won't live. if you make it live in a big space, it will be your undoing! this is why it's important to have bass in the reverb signal, because bass lives forever! cut this out totally, and you will go to jail, won't pass go, and won't collect 200 pounds
let's go!
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!