25-10-2015, 09:33 PM
Hey Dave,
wow, that was... honest.
Thanks for your feedback.
I think that I may have to clarify some things...
First of all, I never wanted to put my mix as best mix out there ever. I am NOT happy with it. It just came out as the band wanted it to be.
Apart from the drum tracks, which were recorded through hardware processing as stated in my first post of this thread, only vocals were processed. No compression or EQing apart from that, neither on vocals, nor the raw bass track (the distorted one was just reamped through a sansamp, no further processing) or guitars, no automation, nothing.
And yes, the vocals were pitch corrected. With Logic Pro X's pitch shifter. Nothing fancy because I'm a student and can't afford anything fancy from the credit I took to be able to study.
I never studied sound engineering, so I'm not a professional. I've been doing it as a hobby for about three years now, but always learned via trial and error.
I don't like listening to loud music and I try to preserve my hearing abilities, so I'm always rehearsing with in-ear-monitoring and additional hearing protection to dampen the whole thing down when playing drums with my band, I'm using hearing protection on live concerts and I prefer listening to music on a medium volume using isolating headphones rather than damaging my hearing with cheap earbuds on full volume, and I had a hearing test recently stating "above average" hearing abilities for my age so no, I don't suffer from hearing impairment.
The leveling was made in the mastering (which was done in Tiny Pond Studios as well) and he's a professional, though the master was a bit overcompressed in my opinion too.
There have been two masters: A "hard master" to stay in the game if the EP was compared to another disc and a "soft master" for services with automatic volume adjustment like iTunes, Spotify, etc.
I uploaded the hard master, but if you want to, I can upload the unmastered mix and the soft master as well if you'd like to take a listen.
You know what, Dave? Loudness sucks. I totally agree on that. But that's my opinion and the band needs to be able to sell their EP and they can't if they want a really dynamic mix and music industry doesn't change anything.
The guy who mastered this knew this and did the right thing even if it sounds wrong to professionals. But you wouldn't notice small plot errors in a movie unless you're a script writer, right? I know that argument sucks, but I can't change it. That's how it works and a local band is not in a good position for a big change in the music industry.
I didn't do the mix for you guys, I did it for the band, and I invested more time in this project than in anything else just to learn something and get some small money for it. Do you really think that I'm screwing the mix only to "wave my middle finger" to everyone?
I don't know what you refer to as a "kid", I'm 22 years old, if that's a kid in your point of view, that's fine, but if you treat every kid like this you shouldn't be a dad. Ever.
I like critics because they help me improve my skills but it's all a matter of tone, you know? You basically just put me in the position of a total douche for my mix, stating that I was either making fun of people who are yet learning how to mix or I'm a total loser on that.
...aaaand I don't know for sure what you mean with -14LUFS, a True Peak of -1 and an approximate +5 LRA. I guess that's some standard of dynamic range, but I wouldn't know how to do that.
...on the other hand it's a true statement saying that a mix sucks if you didn't even upload one yourself. To say that with your words:
I don't wish to sound confrontational, but that's kinda poor in my opinion.
Did you notice how arrogant that sounds?
Cheers,
Till
wow, that was... honest.
Thanks for your feedback.
I think that I may have to clarify some things...
First of all, I never wanted to put my mix as best mix out there ever. I am NOT happy with it. It just came out as the band wanted it to be.
Apart from the drum tracks, which were recorded through hardware processing as stated in my first post of this thread, only vocals were processed. No compression or EQing apart from that, neither on vocals, nor the raw bass track (the distorted one was just reamped through a sansamp, no further processing) or guitars, no automation, nothing.
And yes, the vocals were pitch corrected. With Logic Pro X's pitch shifter. Nothing fancy because I'm a student and can't afford anything fancy from the credit I took to be able to study.
I never studied sound engineering, so I'm not a professional. I've been doing it as a hobby for about three years now, but always learned via trial and error.
I don't like listening to loud music and I try to preserve my hearing abilities, so I'm always rehearsing with in-ear-monitoring and additional hearing protection to dampen the whole thing down when playing drums with my band, I'm using hearing protection on live concerts and I prefer listening to music on a medium volume using isolating headphones rather than damaging my hearing with cheap earbuds on full volume, and I had a hearing test recently stating "above average" hearing abilities for my age so no, I don't suffer from hearing impairment.
The leveling was made in the mastering (which was done in Tiny Pond Studios as well) and he's a professional, though the master was a bit overcompressed in my opinion too.
There have been two masters: A "hard master" to stay in the game if the EP was compared to another disc and a "soft master" for services with automatic volume adjustment like iTunes, Spotify, etc.
I uploaded the hard master, but if you want to, I can upload the unmastered mix and the soft master as well if you'd like to take a listen.
You know what, Dave? Loudness sucks. I totally agree on that. But that's my opinion and the band needs to be able to sell their EP and they can't if they want a really dynamic mix and music industry doesn't change anything.
The guy who mastered this knew this and did the right thing even if it sounds wrong to professionals. But you wouldn't notice small plot errors in a movie unless you're a script writer, right? I know that argument sucks, but I can't change it. That's how it works and a local band is not in a good position for a big change in the music industry.
I didn't do the mix for you guys, I did it for the band, and I invested more time in this project than in anything else just to learn something and get some small money for it. Do you really think that I'm screwing the mix only to "wave my middle finger" to everyone?
I don't know what you refer to as a "kid", I'm 22 years old, if that's a kid in your point of view, that's fine, but if you treat every kid like this you shouldn't be a dad. Ever.
I like critics because they help me improve my skills but it's all a matter of tone, you know? You basically just put me in the position of a total douche for my mix, stating that I was either making fun of people who are yet learning how to mix or I'm a total loser on that.
...aaaand I don't know for sure what you mean with -14LUFS, a True Peak of -1 and an approximate +5 LRA. I guess that's some standard of dynamic range, but I wouldn't know how to do that.
...on the other hand it's a true statement saying that a mix sucks if you didn't even upload one yourself. To say that with your words:
I don't wish to sound confrontational, but that's kinda poor in my opinion.
Did you notice how arrogant that sounds?
Cheers,
Till
(25-10-2015, 02:58 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Till, do you suffer from hearing impairment? i'm being serious. i have no idea how anyone can listen to this mix without suffering major fatigue; the amount of compression applied here is absolutely ridiculous. most musicians have impaired hearing, indeed, many kids these days are also showing significant signs of damage due to changes in listening habits; ear buds and prolonged exposures above safe thresholds are partly to blame - it's becoming a global governmental concern. these might be your target audience, perhaps; without their DAC's and speakers distorting to hell they can't embrace the music because they probably can't hear it unless it's doing so.
if your mix was loudness-matched against a dynamic mix that complied with iTunes dynamic specifications (i.e. their playback leveller which penalises loud songs) and global loudness legislation for example, it would, and does........suck. it's totally lifeless and lacks any energy whatsoever. clearly you are yet to be convinced the loudness war is over because you are waving a middle finger to dynamics with much gusto? however they do say that "Loud is perceived better", only it's been proven that it isn't. but it does impress the noobs and i can't help wondering if you are exploiting that [intentionally, or otherwise]?
anyway, i recommend you get your hearing checked. because if it is failing from poor attention to health and safety, you need to act fast to stop it declining any further. hearing aids aren't cool, eh?
on another matter, Mike states in the MDL's page introduction, that:
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"All these files are presented......without any effects or processing."
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that's clearly NOT the case with your multi-track. it's been tampered with subsequent to the recordings...you've EQ'd, compressed and automated. the vocal has also been pitch corrected.
if i'm going to mix something, i want to apply my own parameters without having them, and their artifacts(!) forced upon me, and i'd suggest that people here in the forum, would also benefit from not having to negotiate material that's been tampered with. for example, automation is going to mess up someone's Insert chain, and thereafter through to the stereo buss, pretty substantially. if they don't yet understand what they are being confronted with in the supplied materials, they will never stand a hope in learning anything. they believe they are mixing "The Recordings", without processing - Mike has told them so.
if the kid can't pitch and you don't want the world to know, i could understand processing it before releasing it in the Public Domain (but poor pitching skills will show up at gigs anyway). personally, i think it would provide excellent opportunity in the forum for people to have a go at doing "transparent" pitch correction, for example. and if low cuts and high cuts or shelving filters need to be applied, that they learn by having a go at doing this themselves. the same goes for compression...and automation.
i don't wish to sound confrontational, but i have concerns. your fundamental concern appears to be marketing and promotion for the band (hence the loudness - to impress perhaps)? my concern is for my on-going personal development and helping the development of others as best i can, in a sharing community. i believe that what you are doing is hindering the development process, not only in this mix, but in your multi-track. when i read comments like "nice mix", or "this is a very good, solid, pleasant, and effective mix", then i think my concerns are well founded. noobs are going to read those comments and think that what they are hearing IS good and will no doubt try and replicate it. that's not a healthy learning environment, in any language.
i challenge you to put this song out WITH dynamics intact. aim for -14LUFS, a True Peak of -1 and an approximate +5 LRA (simply turning it down is not enough, though for those who do turn this mix down to loudness match it against =14 LUFS, say, they will immediately discover where my claims of dullness came from). i bet my pension that you can't rise to the challenge. indeed, i challenge EVERYONE to have a go at this. in attempting to, you should soon discover the issues present in the multi which nobody has discussed yet.
anyway, please at least think about the issues i raise, that's all i ask. without thought, there cannot be a potential for progress......
Cheers,,
Dave